Historical accuracy of kettle helm and bevoir -- myArmoury.com

Austin Eden · Last edited by Austin Eden on Sun 01 Oct, 2017 9:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

I love the look of a kettle helm and never. I was just wondering if anyone knows how accurate it is? Is their any depictions of this kind of set up in manuscripts or art from around the 1400s?

Edit: So I just found this other thread that more or less asks the same thing but with an earlyer time frame so my bad. Posted it as a link so anyone else looking for this info can find it in the future as well.

https://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=33698

Bram Verbeek · Posted: Wed 20 Sep, 2017 9:39 am Post subject:

The kettle helm is well documented, look at the Lewiss Chessmen for the 12th century,

a variety of them in the Maciejowski bible in the 13th,

About 1300

A bit later in the 14th

The guy on the lower right in the 15th

Mark Moore · Posted: Wed 20 Sep, 2017 9:50 am Post subject:

Austin----Welcome to the community! Big Grin

I can't honestly say I've ever seen one used with a face grill like that, but with a bevor...yes. Looking at the photo you provided,it appears to be heat-treated steel, and the grill makes it SCA-legal. I've never heard of Shamrock Armoury, but he has some pretty amazing stuff there! Wink

....McM

Austin Eden · Posted: Wed 20 Sep, 2017 11:37 am Post subject:

Sort should of clarified, I'm wondering if the practice of wearing a bevoir with a kettle helm was common or documented. I'm building a mid 1400s kit and I was looking for a manuscript of archeological find that was simmilar to the picture I posted. My bad lol.

Len Parker · Posted: Wed 20 Sep, 2017 2:47 pm Post subject:

Here: http://www.tforum.info/forum//index.php?showtopic=20556

Mart Shearer · Posted: Wed 20 Sep, 2017 3:11 pm Post subject:

The problem with using museum photos of extant examples is that museums can mix and match components into "composite" armors.

Emmett R · Posted: Wed 20 Sep, 2017 4:22 pm Post subject:

There are many depictions of kettle helmets being worn with a bevor of plate or mail, especially in German manuscripts and artwork from the first half of the 15th century.

Here are just a few examples dating from c.1400-1450:

1400-1420:
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/5462/18359/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/5462/18370/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4818/13513/
1435-1450:
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/5462/18370/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/5874/23328/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/5753/21455/

I found all of these relatively, so if you'd like to gain more insight I highly suggest you explore the following websites:
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/
http://armourinart.com/
And perhaps http://effigiesandbrasses.com/ , although I'm dubious as to how many kettle helmets you will find on effigies.

Eric S · Posted: Wed 20 Sep, 2017 4:27 pm Post subject:

Austin Eden · Posted: Wed 20 Sep, 2017 4:35 pm Post subject:

I actually found that site and was going through the German ones using a 1400 to 1500 time spread when you posted those. Thanks for doing that bit of research for me! Some of the ones I had found I couldn't be certain if they were coifs or not. Than you very much everyone I have been looking for a clear manuscript representation for a while now.

Tjarand Matre · Posted: Thu 21 Sep, 2017 8:05 am Post subject:

Kettle hats and bevors were quite common in Scandinavia, even with full gothic plate.
Fresco is from late 15th century.

Niels Just Rasmussen · Posted: Thu 21 Sep, 2017 9:16 am Post subject:

Richard Miller · Posted: Thu 21 Sep, 2017 12:55 pm Post subject:

I've seen some very nice helms from the 15th C. that are of similar design, Often the hem was decorated with simple brass rivets where the one you show has fleurs de lis. I'd say it's historically accurate in style.

Tjarand Matre · Posted: Fri 22 Sep, 2017 7:24 am Post subject:

Niels Just Rasmussen · Posted: Sat 23 Sep, 2017 3:41 am Post subject:

Austin Eden · Posted: Sat 30 Sep, 2017 8:23 am Post subject:

Man all of you guys are being really helpful in my research for my kit here I have a gift for all of you.

Mark Moore · Posted: Sat 30 Sep, 2017 9:09 am Post subject:

On behalf of all of us....You are most welcomed. Big Grin

Be sure to send us pics of your kit when you finish it! It will surely be spectacular! Wink

......McM

Mark Moore · Posted: Sun 01 Oct, 2017 6:33 am Post subject:

I think my next helm purchase will be a kettle with the down-turned brim and eye-slits....and a bevor. That's just too damned cool to not have in my collection. Big Grin

Yup....gotta have.... Wink

......McM

Austin Eden · Posted: Sun 01 Oct, 2017 9:11 pm Post subject:

Oh I will, it will be a minute before I can ever really start. I plan on making it sca compatible so I will post before I have to had that ugly bar grill.