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Henrik Zoltan Toth




Location: Hungary
Joined: 18 Feb 2007

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PostPosted: Sat 24 Jun, 2017 1:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These, sometimes 1.50 m long estocs were used as secondary weapons since the early 15th Century against chainmail.(first mention: the battle of Varna, 1444, where a phasa was estoced) and later they replaced the light lance. But just for trusting and not for fancing, I think.

http://mek.oszk.hu/09100/09175/html/images/1271.jpg

https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-7a5f67a4887a35a822357f5ac2bee3ba-c
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Chris Friede




Location: Austin
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PostPosted: Mon 26 Jun, 2017 11:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One thought is that the 'tuck' or 'estoc' did exist--basically a long metal spike, often with no cutting edge. A military-grade, pure thrusting weapon to punch through armor.
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Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
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PostPosted: Mon 26 Jun, 2017 12:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chris Friede wrote:
One thought is that the 'tuck' or 'estoc' did exist--basically a long metal spike, often with no cutting edge. A military-grade, pure thrusting weapon to punch through armor.

And quite different from a rapier.

"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Vincent Le Chevalier




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PostPosted: Tue 27 Jun, 2017 2:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Indeed several styles of thrusting swords have come up which are quite different in design and use.

When armour becomes so good that you need better thrusting abilities, you end up with relatively short blades with a triangular profile, like type XVs. You're not going to be thrusting through gaps from a distance, you really need to get up close to be efficient. Too much length is detrimental in that application, if it makes the blade too difficult to handle at close quarters. If you take this to the ultimate conclusion, specialised to be used in armour against armour, you get the estoc: two-handed because you won't use a shield or a secondary weapon, very stiff and stout, still quite short, no edges.

Rapiers have developped along a very different path. They seem to develop rather from type XIX swords, which have almost parallel edges and a blade wide enough to cut plenty well. Then these sword started to get longer, because reach is a very decisive advantage in unarmoured dueling or self-defense. Thrusting began to be emphasized for tactical reasons. In order to keep the tip nimble enough, you have to lighten the blade in some ways, and that is going to diminish width and cutting abilities. You end up eventually with stiff, long blades, some of which have no edges anymore.

Basically rapiers became thrust-centric because that is the most efficient way to use a one-handed weapon with a long reach. They are cutting swords that got so long that they had to give up cutting capacity. Anti-armour swords became thrust-centric because the cut was not efficient any longer, but never needed the reach.

Regards,

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Benjamin H. Abbott




Location: New Mexico
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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jun, 2017 2:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Estocs weren't particularly short. 39in blades appear common for 16th-century estocs, which is close to shorter rapiers. And some estocs had much longer blades, up to 48+ inches as with long rapiers. So the typical estoc (39in blade) was probably somewhat shorter than the typical rapier (42in blade), but not by a lot (3 inches?). And estocs often had long grips, further equalizing the reach of the two weapons.
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Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
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PostPosted: Wed 28 Jun, 2017 11:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Benjamin H. Abbott wrote:
Estocs weren't particularly short. 39in blades appear common for 16th-century estocs, which is close to shorter rapiers. And some estocs had much longer blades, up to 48+ inches as with long rapiers. So the typical estoc (39in blade) was probably somewhat shorter than the typical rapier (42in blade), but not by a lot (3 inches?). And estocs often had long grips, further equalizing the reach of the two weapons.

Yes, but unlike rapiers they were not set up to actually utilize that reach at its maximum. Quite the opposite, really - in armoured fighting you'd want to get right up close and use that length for leverage, instead.

"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Benjamin H. Abbott




Location: New Mexico
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PostPosted: Thu 29 Jun, 2017 7:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Are there any manuals that cover the estoc specifically?

Juan Quijada de Reayo, in his 1548 jousting manual, mentioned the estoc has the first weapon for a man-at-arms to use after breaking the lance in war, attacking the voids of the face, armpits, and belly/groin. I think of the estoc as primarily a cavalry weapon. (That's what Noel Fallows claims and Ewart Oakeshott apparently claimed.) In that capacity, I suspect wielders did take full advantage of the estoc's length.

Now, for fully armored combat on foot I assume one would use the estoc described in various 15th-century manuals, halfswording and all that. I don't know of any evidence of that for 16th-century estocs, but it makes sense.

For unarmored combat on foot, I assume one would use the estoc with a mix of longsword and rapier techniques. And estocs were carried in civilian contexts in Spain in the 1540s according to Fallows.
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Akos Szederjei




Location: Germany / Hungary
Joined: 05 Sep 2017

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PostPosted: Tue 05 Sep, 2017 5:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was in the German Historical Museum (DHM) and made some interesting discoveries. There were armours used by the heavy cavalry in 30 Years Wars with their weapons.

Forgive the bad quality of the photos, I made them with my mobile through glass.

The first one is what we would expect from a soldier of the 30 Years Wars: a broad sideword to hammer the head of the infantry. No surprise here.
http://akos.hd.hu/pics/forum/DSC_0217.JPG

The other two were very interesting though. Look at the long blades!
http://akos.hd.hu/pics/forum/DSC_0219.JPG
http://akos.hd.hu/pics/forum/DSC_0220.JPG
http://akos.hd.hu/pics/forum/DSC_0221.JPG

Either the museum curators are incompetent, which I doubt; or, this is an interesting development of the rapier. It would make sense to have long blades from the horseback, yet the small width makes the blade look fragile. The question is if they were really fragile in real conditions.
If those blades were really used by the heavy cavalry, it is an interesting and highly special development of the rapier!
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Philip Dyer





Joined: 25 Jul 2013

Posts: 507

PostPosted: Tue 05 Sep, 2017 8:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Akos Szederjei wrote:
I was in the German Historical Museum (DHM) and made some interesting discoveries. There were armours used by the heavy cavalry in 30 Years Wars with their weapons.

Forgive the bad quality of the photos, I made them with my mobile through glass.

The first one is what we would expect from a soldier of the 30 Years Wars: a broad sideword to hammer the head of the infantry. No surprise here.
http://akos.hd.hu/pics/forum/DSC_0217.JPG

The other two were very interesting though. Look at the long blades!
http://akos.hd.hu/pics/forum/DSC_0219.JPG
http://akos.hd.hu/pics/forum/DSC_0220.JPG
http://akos.hd.hu/pics/forum/DSC_0221.JPG

Either the museum curators are incompetent, which I doubt; or, this is an interesting development of the rapier. It would make sense to have long blades from the horseback, yet the small width makes the blade look fragile. The question is if they were really fragile in real conditions.
If those blades were really used by the heavy cavalry, it is an interesting and highly special development of the rapier!
I wouldn't be surprised if those swords were extremely thick and almost edge less. The longer you make a sword while trying keep a good edge on it without making it broader, the more fragile you make it.
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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Posts: 2,698

PostPosted: Wed 06 Sep, 2017 2:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Benjamin H. Abbott wrote:
Are there any manuals that cover the estoc specifically?

Juan Quijada de Reayo, in his 1548 jousting manual, mentioned the estoc has the first weapon for a man-at-arms to use after breaking the lance in war, attacking the voids of the face, armpits, and belly/groin. I think of the estoc as primarily a cavalry weapon. (That's what Noel Fallows claims and Ewart Oakeshott apparently claimed.) In that capacity, I suspect wielders did take full advantage of the estoc's length.


Not really -- to both questions.

We do know the general idea of how to use a thrusting sword against an armoured opponent in cavalry combat from such sources as Wallhausen and Cruso (which was a translated abridgment of Wallhausen anyway), and it seems that the basic idea was to simply brace the hilt/pommel against the thigh and aim at the opponent's visor or armpit. This method clearly doesn't make maximum use of the sword's reach (unlike, say, early 20th century British cavalry drill with the sword presented in seconde). If tucks were used the same way, then there we go.
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