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Keith Larman
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Mar, 2005 10:35 pm    Post subject: Islamic?         Reply with quote

Since the topic has been brought up. Some photos of something in my safe...


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Keith Larman
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Keith Larman
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Mar, 2005 10:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

More...


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Keith Larman
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Keith Larman
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Mar, 2005 10:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And more...


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Keith Larman
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Keith Larman
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Mar, 2005 10:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Finally...


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Keith Larman
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Keith Larman
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Mar, 2005 10:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And to answer the obvious question, I don't know a thing about it because it's not my area in the slightest. And the owner wants me to research it and possibly find it a new home...
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Chris Holzman





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PostPosted: Wed 02 Mar, 2005 10:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sigh.... I remember that picture from this summer.. drool. drool.. I so wish I were in the market.
Chris Holzman
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Alina Boyden





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PostPosted: Thu 03 Mar, 2005 12:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have a home ready and waiting for it provided that it is free Razz

This is a kilic (kilij). You can tell both by the extreme curvature of the blade as well as by (and possibly more importantly) the sharpened false edge on the last few inches of the blade towards the tip. I am by no means an expert on Islamic swords and I can't read the cartouche you gave us such a lovely picture of but I would say this example is most likely Ottoman. Most kilic style blades were made in the Ottoman empire so while being merely a guess, it is a reasonably good one. The condition of the blade is really nice. I'll get Manoucher and some people from SFI to check it out and see if they can't read the cartouches for you. Could you give us a close up picture of the blade so we can get an idea as to what sort of johar (pattern welding) is used in the blade construction?
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Keith Larman
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Mar, 2005 9:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm finishing up some polishing on a sword today, but later on I'll try to rig up some lights and get some better shots of the blade itself.

And since I received a couple e-mails about it, I should be clearer on the topic of my intent with the sword. I don't own it but it will be on the market soon. The owner asked me to help her sell some things a while back but had "seller's remorse" so it went into the safe while she thought about it. Anyway, the owner has finally decided it is okay to let it go. So I'm trying to gather info so I can come up with a fair valuation prior to offering it up for sale.

Back to polishing until the back gives out... Then a handful of advil and I'll work on some better photos. Anything else anyone wants to see up close on this piece? I really should try to get some good photos to just give over to myArmoury fwiw.

I must admit I'm intrigued by the cartouche.

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Alina Boyden





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PostPosted: Thu 03 Mar, 2005 4:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Keith Larman wrote:
And more...


Manoucher says that this cartouche reads: Amal-e Musa Ali "The Work of Musa Ali"
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Alina Boyden





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PostPosted: Thu 03 Mar, 2005 4:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Keith Larman wrote:
Finally...


The bottom cartouche in this set is apparently illegible. The top cartouche is really cool though. It says "La Fati ella Ali La Seif ella Zulfaghar"

That means "There is no young man (meaning member of Futuwat and all the association of it such as bravery, etc.) besides Ali

There is no sword besides Zulfaghar"

Special thanks to Manoucher from swordforum for translating these for me!
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Mar, 2005 4:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I love the Kilij, it's my favorite pattern from the mid-east.

Oh for some spare cash as I'd love to have this one!

Nice piece.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Gordon Frye




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Mar, 2005 5:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This has GOT to be one of the coolest Kalij's I've seen. Beautiful! My wife keeps poking me for one of these... she does Middle Eastern Dance, and of course they do their sword dancing. The run of the mill "swords" are such horrible garbage that she (Thank GOD!!!!) won't be caught anywhere in the neighborhood of one. I ended up buying her a nice antique tulwar, since it was as close as I could find at anything approaching a reasonable price at the time, and still have a real sword (She keeps having to remind others that "Hey, this is a REAL sword, and yes, it's SHARP!) Somehow I didn't think that a 1796 Light Dragoon Sabre would be quite right, even though the blade would be...

Of course, if I managed to score something as absolutely wonderful as this one, I doubt that she'd ever get to put her hands on it... CERTAINLY not before going through some serious instruction on it, LOL!

Gorgeous, and I certainly don't mean to belittle it by putting it in the dance context. It's just that a piece that nice deserves to be seen.

Cheers!

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
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Alina Boyden





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PostPosted: Thu 03 Mar, 2005 6:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gordon Frye wrote:
This has GOT to be one of the coolest Kalij's I've seen. Beautiful! My wife keeps poking me for one of these... she does Middle Eastern Dance, and of course they do their sword dancing. The run of the mill "swords" are such horrible garbage that she (Thank GOD!!!!) won't be caught anywhere in the neighborhood of one. I ended up buying her a nice antique tulwar, since it was as close as I could find at anything approaching a reasonable price at the time, and still have a real sword (She keeps having to remind others that "Hey, this is a REAL sword, and yes, it's SHARP!) Somehow I didn't think that a 1796 Light Dragoon Sabre would be quite right, even though the blade would be...

Of course, if I managed to score something as absolutely wonderful as this one, I doubt that she'd ever get to put her hands on it... CERTAINLY not before going through some serious instruction on it, LOL!

Gorgeous, and I certainly don't mean to belittle it by putting it in the dance context. It's just that a piece that nice deserves to be seen.

Cheers!

Gordon


I don't think dance belittles it. There are many forms of native middle eastern dance that use swords aside from the more popular forms used today.

It is a lovely kilic. I'm not so into them as I prefer the saif and even the shamshir, but I'd love to have this one. The only antique I own is a turn of the century Japanese cavalry saber.
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Nate C.




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Mar, 2005 6:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Way Cool!! Eek! Big Grin Big Grin

A couple things really quick. First, would it be possible to get some closer/larger shots of the blade? I would love to see it up close in its entirety and maybe a close up of the tip and false edge. Also, what is the rule on cleaning antiques like this one? I know that the patination adds value and authenticity but what if there is active rust or lots of dirt, etc.? I ask this in passing because it looks like there might be something on the blade in the third from last pic (dirt or scabbard gunk?). Still a beautiful sword and I hope to have something like it one day. So I'm asking for future reference.

Cheers,

Nate C.

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If they ever come up with a Swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, then Jumping Off Something. --Jack Handy
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Keith Larman
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Mar, 2005 7:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey folks.

First of all, thanks Alina for all your help. And by extension Manoucher of course. I appreciate the help as it is way out of my area.

After looking at other Kilij for sale, I think what I might do is put this up on ebay in the next few days. I'll put a starting bid of something like $900 on it with no reserve and let the cards fall where they may. I hope you don't mind if I use the info folk have given me here and I'll be happy to plug this site, Alina, and Manoucher for all the help on the translation. If it goes for a low price, so be it. It is really an interesting piece through my "Japanese sword" eyes. I'll take a few more pics probably tomorrow or this weekend as time permits. I'm doing this mostly as a favor for a friend of my mom's and basically I'm spending more time and energy than I could possibly ever recover. But it has been interesting to say the least.

I must admit I'm quite impressed with the ornate inlay on this thing. It has been extremely educational for me to study this up close.

Anyway, when I get the chance to take more photos I'll post them here first. Then I suppose up on ebay. And given how weird ebay can be, maybe someone will get it for a song...

Thanks again Alina, I owe you one. Wink

Keith Larman
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Mar, 2005 7:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And Nate:

There doesn't appear to be anything active on it. Long ago stabilized patina. So it should clean up nicely from my experience with Japanese sword restoration. But it ain't my bag, as they say, so I'm not touching it. There is some gunky like stuff on it that looks to me like "scabbard poop". Wink Basically the scabbard is old and it spent the last 60-70 years sitting on a shelf in this lady's house in the scabbard. There is nothing on it that makes my restoration radar click on. But of course my area is Japanese swords and not these. I figured the best thing for me to do is leave it well enough alone and let an enthusiast who knows better deal with those issues.

I'll get more photos as I get the time over the next few days. Too much to do, too little time. For now... Time to go watch scooby doo with the kid... We have a daddy/daughter date tonight in front of the boob tube. Wink

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Alina Boyden





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PostPosted: Thu 03 Mar, 2005 11:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Keith Larman wrote:
Hey folks.

First of all, thanks Alina for all your help. And by extension Manoucher of course. I appreciate the help as it is way out of my area.

After looking at other Kilij for sale, I think what I might do is put this up on ebay in the next few days. I'll put a starting bid of something like $900 on it with no reserve and let the cards fall where they may. I hope you don't mind if I use the info folk have given me here and I'll be happy to plug this site, Alina, and Manoucher for all the help on the translation. If it goes for a low price, so be it. It is really an interesting piece through my "Japanese sword" eyes. I'll take a few more pics probably tomorrow or this weekend as time permits. I'm doing this mostly as a favor for a friend of my mom's and basically I'm spending more time and energy than I could possibly ever recover. But it has been interesting to say the least.

I must admit I'm quite impressed with the ornate inlay on this thing. It has been extremely educational for me to study this up close.

Anyway, when I get the chance to take more photos I'll post them here first. Then I suppose up on ebay. And given how weird ebay can be, maybe someone will get it for a song...

Thanks again Alina, I owe you one. Wink


No problem...except that you're breaking my Islamic sword loving heart. Ah, the tribulations of the totally broke sword connoisseur(e?)...

Seriously though, Manoucher also confirmed my thoughts on it being Ottoman. I wasn't sure if there were any Persian swords of this type but he would have spoken up quickly if that were the case. If you run into any more of these be sure to let us know!
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Alina Boyden





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PostPosted: Thu 03 Mar, 2005 11:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh I thought maybe I should add that you might want to put the pics of the blade up before you list it on Ebay. I've done some scouting around and if it has a good wootz/damascus blade (which I suspect it does) then it might easily be worth 2000 dollars or more. It depends on age and condition of course but from the pics I've seen it looks to be in really stellar shape.
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Nate C.




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Mar, 2005 11:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alina Boyden wrote:
...except that you're breaking my Islamic sword loving heart. Ah, the tribulations of the totally broke sword connoisseur(e?)...

...If you run into any more of these be sure to let us know!

...then it might easily be worth 2000 dollars or more...


I agree and I sympathize...now if I could just figure a way to pay for grad school AND the sword....

Ah, well. May it find a home with someone who will truly appreciate it!

Cheers,

Nate C.

Sapere Aude
"If you are going to kill the man, at least give him a decent salute." - A. Blansitt

If they ever come up with a Swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, then Jumping Off Something. --Jack Handy
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Alina Boyden





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PostPosted: Thu 03 Mar, 2005 11:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nate C. wrote:

I agree and I sympathize...now if I could just figure a way to pay for grad school AND the sword....

Ah, well. May it find a home with someone who will truly appreciate it!

Cheers,


Agreed. I've got next quarter's tuition to pay and I haven't even taken my finals for this one. Hopefully over the next year or so I should have more money in case another one of these pops up. Who knows, maybe it'll be that long awaited saif.
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