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Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom




Location: Göteborg Sweden
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PostPosted: Fri 04 Mar, 2005 12:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Anton de Vries wrote:
The "Chieftain of Oss" sword was in a little box in a corner! WTF?! #@(&^%)#$&^%! WTF?!


I agree Anton Big Grin
now can i see the decoration under the pommel and grip better, nice
And a really big thanks for these pics, i will go and abuse them, trust me Big Grin

Frid o Fröjd!
Patrik
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
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PostPosted: Fri 11 Mar, 2005 2:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Kirk,

Thanks for posting that fantastic article! The Gundlingen and Mindelheim swords are some of my favorites, but I didn't have much information on them yet, especially of the Mindelheim type. The Mindelheim sword from the King's grave of Oss is still my most favorite iron sword of all time. Perhaps some day if I'm rich enough, I'll ask Patrick Barta if he want to do a reproduction it. For those interested, there's a book available on this grave find, which has some really good pictures of the sword and other finds from the grave: http://www.matrijs.com/titelpag.asp?recnumb=90-5345-233-8. It's in dutch though, I don't know if there's a English version of the book available.

I have some pictures of some additional examples.

Bronze and iron Gundlingen swords in the British Museum:
http://1500bc.com/british_museum/06170014.jpg

Iron Gundlingen sword with gold leaf hilt covers in the British Museum:
http://1500bc.com/british_museum/06270127.JPG

A bronze Mindelheim sword in the National Museum in Copenhagen:
http://membres.lycos.fr/bronzeage/late_bronze_age/07160046.jpg
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Anton de Vries





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PostPosted: Fri 11 Mar, 2005 4:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm going to remove the pictures from my webspace soon, to make room for new stuff.

Just thought I'd give an advance warning. Happy
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
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PostPosted: Mon 17 Jul, 2006 5:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm looking for more detailed information of the ivory hilted Mindelheim type sword from Hallstatt, from grave 573, which is pictured here:
http://www.nhm-wien.ac.at/nhm/prehist/Collect..._16_E.html

Does anyone have accurate drawings and dimentions of the entire blade? At the moment I only have a rough water coloring of the blade, and several photos of the only the hilt.
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
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PostPosted: Fri 21 Jul, 2006 1:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As I've recently come across some more interesting examples of Mindelheim swords by Steve and Ferro from http://www.archaeoforum.de, I thought I'd include them here as well.


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010573F01.jpg
Mindelheim sword with ivory hilt and amber inlays from Hallstatt, grave 573

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010573F04.jpg
Mindelheim sword with ivory hilt and amber inlays from Hallstatt, grave 573

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010507F06.jpg
Ivory pommel with amber inlays from Hallstatt, Grave 507 Dating: 730/720-660BC

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010507F05.jpg
Ivory pommel with amber inlays from Hallstatt, Grave 507 Dating: 730/720-660BC

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010910F05.jpg
Ivory pommel from Hallstatt, Grave 910 Dating: 730/720-660BC

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010697F02.jpg
Mindelheim sword with ivory hilt from Hallstatt, Grave 697 Dating: 660-620BC
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Fri 21 Jul, 2006 2:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I´d just like to say a great big thank to you Kirk for puting together this wonderful presentation.
Very inspiring!
The material I have on these swords is very limited and it is good to see more examples as well as a condensed text presentation. Great work. It is time consuming to filter through material like you have done.

Jeroen, thanks to you as well for posting those ivory pommels. Just what I had dreamed to see without knowing it!

As others have said before: this thread would be great to be worked into an article.

There is a very nice Mindelhiem type sword in Uppsala (kept in storage, but well accessible there when you visit the store rooms). Its tang is broken just where it swells behind the shoulders, but the blade is well preserved. It is a long and handsome sword. The rounded midrib and the risers are expertly shaped and very precisely done. Seems to have been finished by scraping (?). The surface of the sword is such that you might make out toolmarks.
I will look at this sword again next time I visit this store room. Perhaps I can add to this thread with some detail pics of this one example.

I would like to know more about the ones made in Iron (as it would be great to try and forge such a sword sometime).
My impression is that it is the Mindelheim type that were also made in iron. Has there been found iron versions of the smaller Gundlingen type?
(Sorry if this info is already presented in the text!)

Thanks guys for all good work!
Peter
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
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PostPosted: Fri 21 Jul, 2006 3:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
Jeroen, thanks to you as well for posting those ivory pommels. Just what I had dreamed to see without knowing it!

The photos of the ivory hilts are originally from the following site:
http://www2.rgzm.de/tomba1/home/frames.htm
Unfortunately my browser at work doesn't support Java2, so I can't access it to see if there's more.

Quote:
I would like to know more about the ones made in Iron (as it would be great to try and forge such a sword sometime).
My impression is that it is the Mindelheim type that were also made in iron. Has there been found iron versions of the smaller Gundlingen type?
(Sorry if this info is already presented in the text!)
Yes. But it's a bit difficult to say whether they are Gundlingen or Mindleheim type swords, as a lot are in a very poor condition. I do have some pictures of iron Gundlingen swords from Tsjechie. I also know some iron Hallstatt swords which I have no idea were they fit in, as they're a bit different from both the Gundlingen and Mindelheim swords. Some examples (found in the Netherlands) can be seen below.


 Attachment: 95.43 KB
Iron Hallstatt swords from Meerlo, Horst-Hegelsom and Someren-Kraaijenstrark, Netherlands [ Download ]
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Kirk Lee Spencer




Location: Texas
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PostPosted: Mon 24 Jul, 2006 2:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Jeroen...

Thanks so much for the pictures and info... and the link to TOMBA. That is one amazing site! It is a image and info archive dedicated to compiling information on elite burials in Europe throughout the Bronze and Early Iron Age.

Here are a few more images of Mindelheim hilts from the site.

ks



 Attachment: 98.06 KB
HAL.C2.Mindelheim.pL26.Iron.HallstattAustriaSalzbergCem.G260.650bc.MNHV.TOMB.jpg
Iron Mindelheim Bronze Hilt from Hallatt Austria, Salzberg Cem. Grave 260 Hallstatt C2, c.650 B.C. Image Source TOMBA image Archive, Location Museum of Natural History Vienna Austria

 Attachment: 97.47 KB
HAL.C2.Mindelheim.pL82.Iron.HallstattAustriaSalzbergCem.G504.650bc.MNHV.TOMB.jpg
Bronze Mindelheim Bronze Pommel, from Hallstatt Austria Salzberg Cem. Grave 504, Hallstatt C2, c.650 B.C. Image Source TOMB, Location Museum of Natural History Vienna Austria

 Attachment: 77.07 KB
HAL.D1.Mindelheim.Iron.IvoryPommelAmberInlay.LorraineFranceMarainville-sur-MadonCentralGrave.TOMB.jpg
Iron Mindelheim Ivory Pommel with Amber Inlay, from Lorraine France, Marainville-sur-Madon, CentralGrave, Hallstatt D1, Image Source TOMB

Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Kirk Lee Spencer




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PostPosted: Mon 24 Jul, 2006 3:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are few other Mendelheim finds...

I found a color image of the gold foil from Grave 99 shown as drawings in J.D. Cowen's work.

Also a image of a Gundlingen with a separate cast antenna pommel, also mentioned in Cowen.

ks



 Attachment: 52.95 KB
HAL.GoldFoilFromPommel.SalzbergAustria.Grave99.jpg
Gold Foil Decoration from Mendelheim Pommel from Salzberg Austria, Grave 99

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HAL.MindelheimRamsauer2HR.jpg
Early Ramsauer Drawings of Mindelheim Grave Finds from Hallstatt

 Attachment: 52.94 KB
HAL.C.Gundlingen.AntennaPom.jpg
Image of Gundlingen Perserved with Separate Cast Antenna Pommel

Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Kirk Lee Spencer




Location: Texas
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Posts: 820

PostPosted: Mon 24 Jul, 2006 3:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
I´d just like to say a great big thank to you Kirk for puting together this wonderful presentation.
Very inspiring!
The material I have on these swords is very limited and it is good to see more examples as well as a condensed text presentation. Great work. It is time consuming to filter through material like you have done.

Jeroen, thanks to you as well for posting those ivory pommels. Just what I had dreamed to see without knowing it!

As others have said before: this thread would be great to be worked into an article...

Peter



Hi Peter...

Thanks for your encouragement... It means alot to me! Big Grin

I thought about just such an article, but on the development of sword design during all the phases of the Hallstatt period... Of course Hallstatt C will get the lion's share of attention. I am finding it difficult to uncover information on Hallstatt A and B... and Hallstatt D seems to be mostly knives and daggers.

My son just showed me how to use Google translator... It seems to work fairly well on some of the German journal articles on the internet... So that has open a possibilty into new territory. We'll see what happens.

Thanks again

p.s. Would love to see detailed pictures of the Swedish Mindelheim blade!

ks

Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Steve Grisetti




Location: Orlando metro area, Florida, USA
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PostPosted: Mon 24 Jul, 2006 5:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is great stuff, gentlemen! Thanks for posting it.
Kirk Lee Spencer wrote:
...My son just showed me how to use....

Amazing, isn't it, how the much the young can teach their elders! My children are all in their twenties, and they have been teaching me for several years now.

"...dismount thy tuck, be yare in thy preparation, for thy assailant is quick, skilful, and deadly."
- Sir Toby Belch
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Jul, 2006 12:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kirk Lee Spencer wrote:
Here are few other Mendelheim finds...

I found a color image of the gold foil from Grave 99 shown as drawings in J.D. Cowen's work.
Just a minor correction, that's actually from a Gundlingen, the one you posted on page one in this thread. It's a very interesting one, as it's one of the very rare examples of a Gundlingen with hilt remains.
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Kirk Lee Spencer




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PostPosted: Tue 25 Jul, 2006 12:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeroen Zuiderwijk wrote:
Just a minor correction, that's actually from a Gundlingen, the one you posted on page one in this thread. It's a very interesting one, as it's one of the very rare examples of a Gundlingen with hilt remains.


You are right my friend...

Thanks for the correction Big Grin

ks

Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Steve L.





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PostPosted: Tue 25 Jul, 2006 2:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Hallstatt D seems to be mostly knives and daggers.


Correct.

The sword disappear HA C2/ HA D1 and the belt-weapon of the noble hallstatt man is then the dagger (or "daggerknife", a single edged knife with dagger-like hilt) until the latène A: the rebirth of the sword.
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Kirk Lee Spencer




Location: Texas
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Jul, 2006 3:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Steve...

Thanks for the info... Explains why I'm having a hard time finding late Hallstatt swords.

And welcome to the forum... Its good to have you here Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin

ks

Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Steve L.





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PostPosted: Tue 25 Jul, 2006 3:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Explains why I'm having a hard time finding late Hallstatt swords.


Your search find an end:



Hilt-section of an HA D3 "swagger" (it´s 40cm long, iron, somewhere between sword and dagger).

Thx for the welcome!
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Steve L.





Joined: 22 Jul 2006

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PostPosted: Thu 27 Jul, 2006 5:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Today i was in the Archäologische Staatssammlung München in the arsenal enjoying my audience with the Kemmathen sword - 2700 years old and it looks like casted yesterday! Eek!

And i held that beauty in my hands! And ...dam´n ... my girlfriend has lost her digicam! Blush

It´s profitable to know an prof of the Munich university...
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
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PostPosted: Thu 27 Jul, 2006 6:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steve L. wrote:
Today i was in the Archäologische Staatssammlung München in the arsenal enjoying my audience with the Kemmathen sword - 2700 years old and it looks like casted yesterday! Eek!

And i held that beauty in my hands!

You lucky b@st@rd! Happy

Quote:
And ...dam´n ... my girlfriend has lost her digicam! Blush

Ack! So now you have to go back again and hold the sword again while re-taking the photos Razz

Quote:
It´s profitable to know an prof of the Munich university...

It's all about connections!
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Steve L.





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PostPosted: Thu 27 Jul, 2006 6:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
You lucky b@st@rd!


Razz Razz Razz

Quote:
Ack! So now you have to go back again and hold the sword again while re-taking the photos


First i´ve to buy a new cam! Worried
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Jeroen Zuiderwijk
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PostPosted: Thu 27 Jul, 2006 7:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Did you get any measurements of the sword b.t.w.? In particular, balance point, mass?
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