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Ian Hutchison




Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland
Joined: 27 Nov 2007

Posts: 449

PostPosted: Thu 05 Jan, 2017 11:52 am    Post subject: Mini-review: Pavel Moc "Swiss Sabre"         Reply with quote

Messers in general have really grown on me, so when I saw the interesting blade profile and hilt decorations of the Swiss sabre (although I would call it a messer) on Pavel Moc's website, I was enticed into ordering one last September.

The ordering process with Pavel was very clear, communication was normally quite prompt, and the sword was completed on schedule. It arrived fairly well packaged with foam blocks protecting the tip and side ring, and a good coat of oil. I paid a little extra for a sharp version of the sword.

I'm afraid I don't have the tools available for detailed stats at the moment but the sword is ~1.5kgs, feels light and quite well balanced. I'm 189cm and the pommel reaches 6cm above my navel, my best guess is 110-112cm (how's that for precision!).
The sword is not blade heavy, PoB is 2.5in from the cross, and can be wielded in one hand as well as two. The blade is quite flexible and does demonstrate distal taper, especially from the mid-point forward. Given the low weight, flexibility, and narrowness of the blade profile, it might be unforgiving in poorly aligned cuts (we'll have to find out in the future!).

Overall, the finish is quite good. The guard has been decorated with care and cleaned up nicely. The peens on the tang, and especially the decorative florets on the cross, are very nice. The fullers are deep and even, and the blade polish is acceptable (with a few scratches). There is a little rough spot on the spine of the blade (pictured) and some scale that wasn't completely removed from the front strap of the tang. I can fix these in a few moments with automotive sandpaper.

I haven't had a chance to cut with it yet, but so far the only disappointing aspect of the blade is the edge. The first 1/5th of the blade is well sharpened (though there is not much of a point), the 2/5th is basically unsharpened, and the rest (3/5th on) is reasonably sharp. There were two nicks and one spot of edge roll when the blade arrived. One nick and the roll are in the first 1/5th, and the other nick about 4 inches from the cross. The roll was pretty easy to correct, haven't figured out how I want to tackle the nicks yet (if at all).

Overall, I'm pleased. Minor cosmetic blemishes don't bother me since I can fix them easily. The nicks are a little more annoying. However, since this is a quite unique looking sword and the wait and price were reasonable, I'm satisfied.

Sorry for the poor quality pictures, I will replace them later when I can get some natural light!




















'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart


Last edited by Ian Hutchison on Thu 05 Jan, 2017 1:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Houston P.




Location: United States
Joined: 20 Apr 2015

Posts: 66

PostPosted: Thu 05 Jan, 2017 12:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the info Ian! Kriegsmessers are one of my absolute favorites. I have really been eyeing that one, but it seemed like it was too good to be true at the price point. I look forward to hearing how the flexibility affects the performance, as well as how it holds up.
...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. (‭Luke‬ ‭22‬:‭36‬) To be without silver is better than to be without honor. -Norse proverb
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Karl Knisley




PostPosted: Fri 06 Jan, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello
Thanks for the review and pics. Arma Bohemia ,has one of these, ever once in a while, and I seriously consider getting one,every time. Messers are my favorite :-) Congrates!
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Sun 08 Jan, 2017 5:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What a fantastic piece! I really have wanted one of these for many years but it hasn't worked out for me.

I would not call it a Swiss Saber however, because it does not have the characteristics of it. It would be a Gro▀messer, Kriegsmesser, Langes Messer, etc.

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Ian Hutchison




Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland
Joined: 27 Nov 2007

Posts: 449

PostPosted: Sun 08 Jan, 2017 7:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
What a fantastic piece! I really have wanted one of these for many years but it hasn't worked out for me.

I would not call it a Swiss Saber however, because it does not have the characteristics of it. It would be a Gro▀messer, Kriegsmesser, Langes Messer, etc.


Yeah, I've always felt the same way about the name. Now I need to go see the original so I can see how close the dimensions are. I have a sneaking suspicion that the spine near the hilt might be slimmer on this piece.

Still, it's really nice for the price and I've cleaned up the chatter on spine, just need a sunny day for some better pictures.

'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Ian Hutchison




Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland
Joined: 27 Nov 2007

Posts: 449

PostPosted: Fri 27 Jan, 2017 6:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

New pics as promised, including the original this recreation is based on.




















'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Hamish C




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 27 Jul 2016

Posts: 35

PostPosted: Mon 30 Jan, 2017 4:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Really looking forward to see how well this one cuts.
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Ian Hutchison




Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland
Joined: 27 Nov 2007

Posts: 449

PostPosted: Tue 31 Jan, 2017 7:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hamish C wrote:
Really looking forward to see how well this one cuts.


Me too, I'm a little concerned about the current sharpness in some spots but I should be able to test on some milk jugs soon.

'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Tjarand Matre




Location: N°tter°y, Norway
Joined: 19 Sep 2010

Posts: 158

PostPosted: Tue 31 Jan, 2017 2:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I love Moc's work and have owned 4 of his longswords. I almost bought this one a few years ago also as messers really speak to me. You mentioned it was a flexible blade. Do you find it overly flexible? I tried 2 blunt versions and they were beyond flexible to my taste, almost floppy to the extent where blade alignment became a concern. Still want one though, an update on handling will be much appreciated :-)
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Ian Hutchison




Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland
Joined: 27 Nov 2007

Posts: 449

PostPosted: Fri 22 Dec, 2017 12:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tjarand Matre wrote:
I love Moc's work and have owned 4 of his longswords. I almost bought this one a few years ago also as messers really speak to me. You mentioned it was a flexible blade. Do you find it overly flexible? I tried 2 blunt versions and they were beyond flexible to my taste, almost floppy to the extent where blade alignment became a concern. Still want one though, an update on handling will be much appreciated :-)


Hi Tjarand, sorry for such a late response.

The blade is very flexible, especially from the mid-point on where the distal taper really kicks in. It is less flexible however than my Nielo langes messer, which wobbles like a spaghetti noodle when you shake it.

I don't recall the dimension, and I don't have the sword at hand to check, but the spine by the guard is quite a bit narrower than on the Albion Knecht, for example. This is the same problem as on the Nielo langes messer, and many saber repros for that matter. I suspect it is caused by starting from a flat metal stock sheet of inadequate thickness, and then removing material to shape the blade.

Still haven't cut much with the sword, as it was confiscated by the police the day I had it (re)sharpened (just my luck) and I'm still waiting to get it back. However, in its half blunt state it made it through thumb diameter saplings with no trouble.

'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Kristian Vrahlioti




Location: Bangor, North Wales
Joined: 01 Dec 2017

Posts: 14

PostPosted: Fri 22 Dec, 2017 2:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
it was confiscated by the police the day I had it (re)sharpened (just my luck) and I'm still waiting to get it back


If you don't mind my asking, why was it confiscated?


Those darn kids on the lawn again? Razz

"See there," said he, "the man who makes preparations to pass out of Europe into Asia, overturned in passing from one seat to another." -Alexander the Great
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Ian Hutchison




Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland
Joined: 27 Nov 2007

Posts: 449

PostPosted: Fri 22 Dec, 2017 4:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kristian Vrahlioti wrote:
Quote:
it was confiscated by the police the day I had it (re)sharpened (just my luck) and I'm still waiting to get it back


If you don't mind my asking, why was it confiscated?


Those darn kids on the lawn again? Razz


As I left the (sword!) store where it had been sharpened, and walked to a waiting car (10m?), someone saw the sword, panicked, and called the police. Using the license plate, the police sent six officers, from two different departments after me.

A few hours later they came to my apartment, asked for the sword and charged me with having a deadly weapon in public. Thankfully, the charges were eventually dropped ( 9-10 months later, they were patently ridiculous of course) but I'm still actually waiting to have the sword returned to me.

'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Kristian Vrahlioti




Location: Bangor, North Wales
Joined: 01 Dec 2017

Posts: 14

PostPosted: Fri 22 Dec, 2017 4:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That is a massive shame and certainly a massive pain in the rear end.

I understand the uninitiated being fearful of a guy carrying a sword but calling the police seems a bit excessive, certainly so if you're not brandishing it as a weapon but rather carrying it.

You'd think the police could follow common sense and just ask the owner at the sword store what had happened.

I live in the UK and have been questioned by the police when carrying my -Blunt- swords to and from practice, and I've escaped having it confiscated after I explain to them it's a blunt for training and stage combat. I have a habit now of wrapping my longsword in a bedsheet (as I don't have a scabbard) when transporting it but I have a feeling that someone carrying a large oddly weapon shaped object under a sheet might cause more panic in public.

It is a running joke now, that when we transport our poleaxes on the train with nothing but a bag over the axehead that it's on "safe" Laughing Out Loud .

"See there," said he, "the man who makes preparations to pass out of Europe into Asia, overturned in passing from one seat to another." -Alexander the Great
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Ian Hutchison




Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland
Joined: 27 Nov 2007

Posts: 449

PostPosted: Fri 22 Dec, 2017 5:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kristian Vrahlioti wrote:
That is a massive shame and certainly a massive pain in the rear end.

I understand the uninitiated being fearful of a guy carrying a sword but calling the police seems a bit excessive, certainly so if you're not brandishing it as a weapon but rather carrying it.

You'd think the police could follow common sense and just ask the owner at the sword store what had happened.

I live in the UK and have been questioned by the police when carrying my -Blunt- swords to and from practice, and I've escaped having it confiscated after I explain to them it's a blunt for training and stage combat. I have a habit now of wrapping my longsword in a bedsheet (as I don't have a scabbard) when transporting it but I have a feeling that someone carrying a large oddly weapon shaped object under a sheet might cause more panic in public.

It is a running joke now, that when we transport our poleaxes on the train with nothing but a bag over the axehead that it's on "safe" Laughing Out Loud .


Yes, this was in the UK too. The PC told me to bring a bed sheet to wrap it in next time (In my mind being caught *concealing* it would be worse). To think that someone could get so perturbed/scared seeing me in the few moments I was in view, that they felt the need to contact the police, is mind boggling. Especially someone who presumably lives next door to fairly major sword manufacturer and retailer.

Anyway, to the sword; presumably it is still sharp so when I do get it back I will finally report on how it cuts.

'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Oskar Gessler




Location: Germany
Joined: 29 Nov 2017

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Fri 22 Dec, 2017 3:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Would you mind to measure the taper and width of the blade when you have it back?

I ve ordered a Kriegsmesser from Vladimir Cervenka and Im trying to find as many information as I can
before things get serious next year when he starts working on it.
Albions Knecht was 7mm to 3mm if I remember it correctly.
Vladimir Cervenka is hardening a few Rockwell lower and I wanted a 120cm messer(although Im not 100% sure about that yet), so I guess making it thinner than the Knecht would definitely be a bad idea.
Now I would be curious how thick and wide this one is if its starting to become too springy at this point.
Cheers
Oskar
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Ian Hutchison




Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland
Joined: 27 Nov 2007

Posts: 449

PostPosted: Fri 22 Dec, 2017 11:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oskar Gessler wrote:
Would you mind to measure the taper and width of the blade when you have it back?

I ve ordered a Kriegsmesser from Vladimir Cervenka and Im trying to find as many information as I can
before things get serious next year when he starts working on it.
Albions Knecht was 7mm to 3mm if I remember it correctly.
Vladimir Cervenka is hardening a few Rockwell lower and I wanted a 120cm messer(although Im not 100% sure about that yet), so I guess making it thinner than the Knecht would definitely be a bad idea.
Now I would be curious how thick and wide this one is if its starting to become too springy at this point.
Cheers
Oskar


Hi Oskar, I will definitely check again when it gets here. I want to say it's like 5mm-2mm or so. The measurements I have for the knecht are 8mm-2mm

'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Oskar Gessler




Location: Germany
Joined: 29 Nov 2017

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Fri 22 Dec, 2017 11:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ian Hutchison wrote:
Oskar Gessler wrote:
Would you mind to measure the taper and width of the blade when you have it back?

I ve ordered a Kriegsmesser from Vladimir Cervenka and Im trying to find as many information as I can
before things get serious next year when he starts working on it.
Albions Knecht was 7mm to 3mm if I remember it correctly.
Vladimir Cervenka is hardening a few Rockwell lower and I wanted a 120cm messer(although Im not 100% sure about that yet), so I guess making it thinner than the Knecht would definitely be a bad idea.
Now I would be curious how thick and wide this one is if its starting to become too springy at this point.
Cheers
Oskar


Hi Oskar, I will definitely check again when it gets here. I want to say it's like 5mm-2mm or so. The measurements I have for the knecht are 8mm-2mm


Thank you Ian!
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Victor R.




Location: Spring, Texas
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 217

PostPosted: Sat 23 Dec, 2017 8:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I took measurements on my Knecht and posted them in the thread linked below a few months back.Went from 8mm down to 2mm.

http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=323...ht=#323385
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Oskar Gessler




Location: Germany
Joined: 29 Nov 2017

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sat 23 Dec, 2017 12:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Victor R. wrote:
I took measurements on my Knecht and posted them in the thread linked below a few months back.Went from 8mm down to 2mm.

http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=323...ht=#323385

Saved to my favorites. This is cool.
Thank you Victor!
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Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
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PostPosted: Sat 23 Dec, 2017 9:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't have a Messer or Swiss Saber. (Or even a Falchion!) Sad Why is this? WTF?! After looking at this 'sword porno', that may have to change. Wink ....McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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