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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Patrick Kelly
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 Posted: Tue 13 Sep, 2016 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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Leave the blade as is. Cutting it would really damage the aesthetic balance of the piece.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Jean Thibodeau
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| Posted: Wed 14 Sep, 2016 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | Leave the blade as is. Cutting it would really damage the aesthetic balance of the piece. |
Yes I agree the blade looks great as it is, the guard is still useful in protecting the hand better even if one doesn't finger the guard or rather that it's impossible to finger the guard.
The only other option is to make a similar guard and make a totally new blade designed from the beginning to have a narrowed possibly symmetrical portion near the guard ? Find another historically accurate sword that uses a similar guard but with a blade design compatible with fingering the guard.
Lovely work by the way Leo, as is your usual hight level of quality.
Good that you at least make and keep a few pieces for yourself, as it sort of sad if you have to sell everything you make .... I know that making a living has to takes precedence, but over a long period of time keeping a few things for yourself makes good sense: Decades from now after you retire, if you ever desire or have to retire not having anything you made for yourself would be sad in my opinion.
By the way, I'm still very happy with anything you made for me as custom work or that I bought from you, as well as the bronze castings for my eagle headed cane(s) .....  
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Sean Flynt
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| Posted: Wed 14 Sep, 2016 7:27 am Post subject: |
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I'd vote for leaving it as-is, but not only for aesthetic reasons.
IF the blade and hilt were married during their working lives, the user or cutler might have thought that this hilt element was simply not needed with the broader blade, which might favor strong cuts more than the narrower blades we sometimes see on these hilts. The narrower blade would allow the use of this element, but also make it worthwhile to do so.
If you didn't need this element due to the change in handling, and if it wasn't in the way, you probably wouldn't go to the trouble of removing it.
Send me one of these hilts and I'll mount it on a HT Bastard sword blade to test the theory Just for the sake of science, of course.
-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Tim Harris
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 14 Sep, 2016 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks very much for the info on the ring guard Tod, and no need to apologize for having it cast. I need to look into that myself, perhaps.
I was curious because some of the mild steel ring guards on HEMA weapons I've made have cracked away after taking a thrashing. I always assumed it was something to do with the quality of the weld.
Some experiments in brazing might be forthcoming.
https://www.facebook.com/TimHarrisSwords
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Leo Todeschini
Industry Professional
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Lukas MG
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sun 18 Sep, 2016 5:27 am Post subject: |
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I'd actually do the cut-out. I don't like form or aesthetics to give way to function and without the cut-out that finger ring serves little purpose. I do also believe it would look fine though I would shape it a bit differently, not a half circle but more like a ricasso, not reaching the full width again in front of the guard but instead going straight down from the deepest point of the circle. Hope that makes sense.
But your choice And you have already made it I believe.
Custom sword maker:
http://www.lukasmaestlegoer.com
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Sun 18 Sep, 2016 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Lukas MG wrote: | | I'd actually do the cut-out. I don't like form or aesthetics to give way to function and without the cut-out that finger ring serves little purpose. |
The sword in question, A479, is a composite and it's likely that the originally assembled sword might have had a functional finger-ring. We can't let this distract us from the fact that many swords have finger rings that would not accommodate a finger due to it being blocked.
You can look at later-period compound hilted katzbalgers as one example. The side-rings are either too small or are filled with smaller rings that will not allow a finger to pass through. These same hilts still have finger rings.
Additionally, you can look at the so-called "Sinclair Saber" for another example. The finger-rings are inaccessible due to the large shell of the hilt.
There are many other examples of hilts that exhibit inaccessible finger-rings.
Why is this? One theory, and one that I believe, is that the finger ring supports the counter-guard; and this bar protects the thumb at the back of the hilt. In this case, vital functionality is still very much preserved; just not in a way that we might originally have expected. Not all swords require fine point control and so would not necessarily benefit from a finger ring; but most swords would certainly benefit from additional protection of the otherwise fully exposed thumb.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Lukas MG
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 20 Sep, 2016 11:17 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for your response, Nathan.
What do you mean by counter-guard? Can't really follow you there... how does the finger ring protect the thumb at the back of the hilt? Do you mean it protects the thumb of the leading hand when the sword is held in the thumb grip? That I can see of course and it's indeed a good reason to have it, even if you cannot actually finger the guard. Even if it isn't held in the thumb grip, the finger ring with additional bar serves much of the same function as the side ring on the other side of the guard.
Still, I can't see how the sword's function would NOT be improved by doing the cut out. Longswords most certainly profit from good point control.
Custom sword maker:
http://www.lukasmaestlegoer.com
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Guillaume Vauthier
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| Posted: Tue 20 Sep, 2016 11:47 am Post subject: |
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I share Nathan's opinion on this particular kind of "finger ring" attached to counterguard. For me it is clearly made to protect the thumb. You can see this guard configuration on several historical dussäge for example: the index finger can't be introduced into, as the guard shell don't allow it. On these swords, there is often a thumb ring attached to the counterguard - valuable reason to add a thumb protection, like on this example.
I think too that this sword doesn't need a cut out like this. In my opinion, this "finger ring" shape is more like a convergent evolution than a real one!
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Tue 20 Sep, 2016 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Lukas MG wrote: | | What do you mean by counter-guard? |
If you follow the links in the above post, you'll see what I'm talking about. In one of the posts is this photo that shows the naming of compound hilt components:
One can also read more about hilt parts in our article, Anatomy of the Sword.
| Lukas MG wrote: | | Can't really follow you there... how does the finger ring protect the thumb at the back of the hilt? |
The counter-guard (inner guard) protects the thumb and is supported by the finger-ring. It's a sweeping bar that attaches to the finger-ring at one end and to the cross-guard at the other. That sweeping bar protects the thumb from getting hit.
| Lukas MG wrote: | | Do you mean it protects the thumb of the leading hand when the sword is held in the thumb grip? |
Thumb grip? I assume you mean thumb-ring. There is no thumb-ring on these hilt. Or do you mean when one places the thumb on the flat of the blade? That must be what you mean...
| Lukas MG wrote: | | That I can see of course and it's indeed a good reason to have it, even if you cannot actually finger the guard. Even if it isn't held in the thumb grip, the finger ring with additional bar serves much of the same function as the side ring on the other side of the guard. |
Yes, exactly.
| Lukas MG wrote: | | Still, I can't see how the sword's function would NOT be improved by doing the cut out. Longswords most certainly profit from good point control. |
I don't necessarily agree with you. More is often better, but isn't always better. Sometimes more is just more. In the case of A479 with its wide blade, I don't personally think the thrust is really going to be a priority.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Lukas MG
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 20 Sep, 2016 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, sorry, I didn't scroll down that far in that linked thread. Makes sense now. It was what I figured and improperly named "additional bar" in my last post. And yes, thumb grip is what I meant. So cool, I learned something new there.
Regarding the use of the point: I don't think a wide blade by necessity means "no thrusting", or even "little thrusting". I have held some very wide bladed longswords that still felt very at home and comfortable during thrusting motions. Most notably a XVIIIc made by Peter Johnsson but also two originals I had the chance to handle. In fact, I imagine them to be scary thrusters on soft tissue... very wide wound channels even with little penetration. Since I haven't handled the A479, I can't say how it feels but maybe Tod can shed some light on that?
The point on the sword in question here is also quite, well, pointy. That does indicate something though its a complex issue.
Custom sword maker:
http://www.lukasmaestlegoer.com
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Leo Todeschini
Industry Professional
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Lukas MG
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 21 Sep, 2016 4:11 am Post subject: |
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Nathan: I agree!
| Leo Todeschini wrote: | Well I decided not to cut the blade, because ultimately I love the look of it as it is.
As regards its ability to stab; it is a stiff blade, so it can certainly fulfil that aspect of fighting.
Tod |
Thanks for chiming in on that, Tod. I'm not so much interested in how stiff it is, that is obvious from the distal taper stats (though it helps to be sure of course) but rather how it feels in hand, how the point moves. Some swords just don't encourage fencing with the point, thrusting motions or point movement often feel sluggish and "inappropriate" with these blades. That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with blade stiffness though unsurprisingly sword with good point control very often have suitably stiff blades and a tip geometry that does well for thrusting. However, tip geometry has as much to do with the intended target as it does with the intended technique. On soft targets, a needle point is not the ideal geometry, a wider yet thinner tip (which can have the same mass) is more efficient, giving a sharper edge and leaving a wider would channel.
Custom sword maker:
http://www.lukasmaestlegoer.com
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Julien M
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| Posted: Mon 10 Oct, 2016 7:26 am Post subject: |
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As mentioned above, this project came out of a study trip at the Wallace Collection, as we were fortunate enough to document this sword among others.
Now I'll say this right now so it's out of the way: Tod's reproduction is outstanding, and here is why:
Pretty sure the results speaks for themselves as far as aesthetics are concerned. Tod went far and beyond expectations with the hilt - the carving is exquisite, very true to the original - he even touched up some of rough patches, while staying absolutely true to form. The pommel is especially pleasing - the spit image of the original. I'd love to lay this sword next to the A479 one of these days, that would tell a better story than the above...
The broad and imposing blade features a deep hollow ground, even and straight. The spine of the blade runs true from guard to tip (actually stops an inch before the tip, being reinforced - See below). The blades has a lot of distal taper, when moving a cloth down the blade, one can feel it thinning down the first two third, then the blade gets thicker again towards the lower third. Edges are extremely sharp, no visible bevel. Now I won't be bashing around tree trunks with a custom sword such as this one, but the blade geometry ensured these edges are not thin, but backed up by a lot of material on the outer edge of the hollow ground. The sword would withstand a lot of abuse I'm sure.
Assembly is very tight, blade guard insert is faultless. The peen is decorated with a flower rivet, as per the original sword.
The grip - cord, bonded with wax. Collective decision on this one, no regret vs leather whatsoever. It visually links the sword to it's counterpart at the Wallace, looks damn good and seems very durable. I'm also tired of the leather with cord imprint that became the standard in the industry. It's good to reestablish some variety in these things, as it is the case among surviving originals.
Finish - satin, even, with no grind marks visible.
Handling - having handled the original sword, I find the reproduction to be bang on. It is 1.475g, it's not lightweight and has an imposing blade presence (a little lighter than most Albion longswords), but being very well balanced, it feels almost weightless in hand, with a tip that stays dead on track when moving the sword around. The decision was made to leave the thumb guard as it is, too close to the blade to allow the finger to pass though. I don't mind, the blade is too broad to allow this anyway so broadening the hilt loop would have been useless. Opening a recess in the blade would not seem proper to me. I've rarely seen this on period sword (whether or not this is indeed a period sword, or a composite made later on (which is, according to curator T Capwell, most likely the case).
I feel Tod really stepped up to the mark with this sword. It's no easy task to choose a favorite piece among Tod's diverse work, but I hold this sword to be one of his best pieces. It certainly outshines everything I owned so far, Albions included.
Last edited by Julien M on Tue 11 Oct, 2016 11:27 am; edited 3 times in total
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Sean Flynt
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Julien M
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| Posted: Mon 10 Oct, 2016 8:05 am Post subject: |
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My pleasure - as for scabbard, I'm entertaining the idea of a metal throat like this one. Of course the thumb guard is in the way...I managed to make a wood core that fits up to the guard, but it leaves no room for roping and little for the thickness of a metal bracket, let alone roping on it. Need to think this through (opening on the side is an option). I may be out of my depth here - we'll see!
J
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Julien M
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| Posted: Mon 10 Oct, 2016 11:37 am Post subject: |
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That scabbard from the wallace collection has a throat shape dealing with the same type of thumb guard. might combine the two.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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This is a standard topic
