[Neal Matheson]

The English in Ireland seemed to think that redshanks were hard to beat, I don;t know how often armies comprised mostly of Highlanders faced regular armies it wasn't that common though was it? Certainly the battles of the 17th-18th century do great credit to the Scottish Highlanders.
Grist for the mill really as I pretty much agree with you.

[Stephen Curtin]

Here's a link to a PHD thesis, that I think you guys might enjoy reading.

https://glasgow.academia.edu/RossCrawford

I haven't had the chance to read it all yet, but there are records showing the numbers of fighting men that each Clan could supply. One such record states that in 1545, Henry VIII of England, contracted a MacDonald Chief to supply 8,000 men, 4,000 to fight the Gordons and Campbells, and the 4,000 to sail for Ireland. 3,000 of these men were heavy infantry, and the 5,000 light infantry. So knowing this, 10,000 men at Harlaw doesn't seem that unreasonable. There's a lot more in there, too much write here.

[Neal Matheson]

Astounding figures! I'm away today but I look forward to reading it.

[Stephen Curtin]

Neal. From what I've seen, it looks pretty good. I was delighted when I found it. I haven't had the time to read it start to finish yet, only bits and pieces of it.

[Neil Melville]

Many thanks, Stephen, for posting that link to Ross's thesis. It is exactly the sort of material that I love reading - though like you I have so far only touched on it. Looks like it will take a while to get through all of it!
Neil

[Stephen Curtin]

You're very welcome Neil.

[Stephen Curtin]

In many people's minds Gaelic warfare is fairly simple, and can be summed up in one word, charge!

As I said earlier, most if not all of the accounts we have of medieval Highland Clan battles, were written between the 17th and 19th centuries. My hypothesis is that these later writers knew the when, where, and why of these battles, but not the how.

I know from looking at Irish sources that Gaelic historians were more interested in pleasing their employers, than giving detailed accounts of formations and tactics. Not having these details to go on, later writers used their knowledge of contemporary battle tactics to fill in the gaps. All they would have to do is replace the current weapons with weapons from the past. Muskets become bows and darts, baskethilts become two handed swords and long axes, add some helmets and mail etc.

Let's think back to the gallowglass again. What was their primary purpose in the cattle raid? They acted as a moving defencive wall, behind which the kern would drive the stolen cattle. If the raiding party was pursued the gallowglass large axe would keep the enemy at bay. This shows that the Gaels, didn't solely rely on an all out offensive charge, they could also fight defensively.

[Neal Matheson]

I agree, there is a real "rough"sophistication to some of the conflicts described in clan histories. Though of course a semi-trained Guerilla type band and an angry mob aren't mutually exclusive and could just describe different elements of the clan structure.
The later charge "invented" by Macolla (which in itself is interesting if indeed an ancient practice) seems like quite a canny adaptation to circumstances rather than ignorance.

[Stephen Curtin]

I think that MacColla didn't so much "invent" the Highland charge because he thought that it was a tactically superior way of fighting, but out of necessity due to limited supplies of ammunition. The reason that his troops marched up close to his enemy, discharge a single volley, then drew swords and charged, was because they often only had enough ammo for one shot each.

In my opinion it's wrong to assume that earlier Gaelic armies fought like MacColla's troops, as what was a necessity in the 1640s wasn't before then.

There are some accounts of infantry charges in 16th century Ireland, but this came when the enemy was caught off guard, or at the end of the battle when the enemy was beginning to route, not as a way to start a battle.

I'm sure there are isolated examples elsewhere in medieval Europe of infantry charges, but this doesn't mean that it was a tactical mainstay. So why do people think this of the Gaels?

[Neal Matheson]

I was referencing the Wikipedia article on the charge. I think a couple of shots and then in with the cold steel was quite common in the 17th century. Having soldiers/warriors who actually WANT to get stuck in must have helped too.

[Stephen Curtin]

My last post wasn't aimed at you Neal. It was meant as a follow-up to my previous post. I wrote it before reading your last post. Typically I write my posts on a word doc in bits and pieces, as I get time throughout the day (I'm a stay at home dad, so time to write is usually 10 minutes here and there), then I copy and paste them here. BTW I agree with everything you said, I'm just coming at this from a different angle.

[Neal Matheson]

Ha yes it comes a croos as terse, like you I write in the snatches between being nagged and be whinged at by kids. I'm quite interested in knowing more about the logistics problems faced by Macolla in Ireland.

[Stephen Curtin]

[Stephen Curtin]

One thing that I do remember, is that arms and ammunition were in low supply amongst the Irish before the Papal Nucio, Cardinal Rinuccini, arrived in Ireland. Rinnucini brought with him a large amount of pike heads, muskets, pistols, swords, ammunition, and gun powder. This happened shortly before the Battle of Benburb, but I believe MacColla had already sailed for Scotland by this point.

[Gabriele Becattini]

while talking about warfare in ireland and scotland, i my opinion we have two distinct subject:

clan warfare and regular armies warfare

in the case of Scotland, the scottish national armies that were fielded from Bannockburn to Marston Moor and Dumbar,
must be regarded in the same light of most of the national armies of the period, they were basically infantry oriented for lack of cavalry bur their tactics, armaments and behaviour was broadly similar to every other european army.

the clan warfare was a different thing, given the feudal nature of the clan way of life, we are talking about a warrior elite backed by a motley paesant levy, only the leaders and the military elite were sufficently armed and trained, while the clan levy should have been like any other untrained paesant milita of the time, largely ineffectual and almost useless against a regular army.

in ireland, the lack of a standind army trained to conventional warfare leads to the downfall of the irish indipence, as the irish clan armies were not a match for the english, has O'Neil had the time to form a spanish trained irish army, i'm sure that the outcome would have been different, instead, they were easily defeated in the decisive encounters while attemping to fight in the conventional manner, for which they were untrained

also the ultimate failure of the Jacobite rising largely demostrate that a " tribal" society without a standing army cannot deal with regulars in terms of discipline, tactics and equipements, regardeless of the war ardour, courage and powress or their warrior elite,

[Stephen Curtin]

I would agree with most of what you said Gabriele. I will challenge you on this point though.

[Stephen Curtin]

After rereading this, I realize that I might have overstated my point a little.

[Stephen Curtin]

Supposedly many of the men recruited by MacColla had experience fighting on the continent during the Thirty Years War. These men would have been trained in conventional Eurpean tactics, and presumably would have used those tactics when the situation allowed. MacColla's men didn't use the charge in all of their battles, and did sometimes fight conventionally. As I said, I believe the charge was used to compensate for low supplies of ammunition. Of course there could have been other factors that I'm not aware of yet.

[Gabriele Becattini]

i agree with all you said Stephen about the irish and scottish military elites, their weakeness lies more in the failure of understanding the modern way of fighting than in equipement or fighting powress (that in some cases was superior to the english ones)

my comment was referred more to the rising out and the raw clan levies, ou

about the "highland charge" i believe that it was not invented by McColla, simply it is the way of fighting of a army lacking discipline and fire power, if you do not have ammunitions or if you cannot endure a fire fight with a superior trained force, is much better to close at them as fast as possible to reduce casualties and then rely on the brute force.

the veteran irish among the McColla force, were for sure trained for a fire fight and sufficently disciplined to conduct a conventional fight, the problem is that thy were fewer in number and in most cases the headlong charge was the only method to employ the raw levies and clansman. i have to admit that most of my knowledge od the subject is due to the reading of Stuart Reid books,

i know that he is a controversial author for his dismissal of the gaelic colture, but his work is rather convincing and sufficently balanced to be plausible

[Stephen Curtin]

Well I can't comment on Stuart Reid, as I have not read any of his books, but I have heard that he is somewhat biased against the Highlanders.

At least in the first three of MacColla and Montrose's victories, Tippermuir, Aberdeen, and Inverlochy, MacColla's "Irish" veterans made up about 3/4 of the royalist infantry. These men were probably the most experienced troops in the Scottish theatre of the Wars of Three Kingdoms. Of course as the war went on their numbers decreased.

Newly recruited Highlanders only made up about 1/4 of the infantry in these early battles. Many of these Highlanders were MacDonalds, and so kinsmen of MacColla's, but I doubt were the Clan's "rising out". More likely they were from the same level of Clan society as the light infantry I spoke of in an earlier post.

These men may have lacked the experience, and discipline of MacColla's veterans, but they did perform better in close quarters combat, than the similarly fresh recruits on the covenanter side, who were easily routed by the Highland charge. This suggests that although the Highlanders were inexperienced in modern military tactic, they came from a martial background, and so are unlikely to have been recruited from the Clan's peasantry.

The major issue with these men, was that after a battle, most returned to protect their homes, and the plunder they had gained. This is somewhat reminiscent of the aftermath of a cattle raid.