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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,290

PostPosted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 11:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The relevant passage from L'Histoire de Guillaume le Maréchal seems to be lines 3100-3114:
https://archive.org/details/lhistoiredeguill01meyeuoft
Quote:
3100 "Ne savon ou il descendra."
A tant de l'ostel s'en issirent,
A la forge vindrent ; cil virent
Qu'il out sor l'anclume sa teste;


3104 Molt i avoit mauveise feste,
Quer li fevres o ses martels,
tenailles e o pincels,
Li alout son hiealme esrachant,


3108 E les fondeures tranchant
Qui trop esteient enfundues
E enbarrées e fundues
Entor le col ert si serrez


3112 Qu'a grant peine fu desserrez.
E quant li healmes fu forferjez
Qui a grant peine en fu tirez,

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,290

PostPosted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 12:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mario M. wrote:
"With this, they left the lodgings and came to the forge, where they saw him with his head on the anvil. It was no laughing matter, far from it, for the smith with his hammers, wrenches and pincers, was going about the task of tearing off his helmet and cutting through the metal strips, which were quite staved in, smashed and battered. The helmet was so tight around his neck that it was freed with great difficulty. Once the helmet was prised off – and it was pulled off with great difficulty – the knights who had come to the forge greeted him graciously"

That settles the debate on whether it was enclosed or not.

Which does not erase the argument pointed out that it might not have happened in 1177, but I believe it did.

So, in case of actual physical proof, the seals I provided from the 1190s are indeed the earliest examples of enclosed helms so far?

Nobody has anything earlier to provide? Worried


It's possible that an early masked helmet could have had the face plate driven under the chin and into the neck making it impossible to remove. Such helmets would not meet my understanding of "enclosed". The helmet from the late 2th century Rolandslied, CPg 112, fo.41v, has already been mentioned. http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg112/0084

Consider the helm from the Hortus deliciarum manuscript. The manuscript was known to be completed in 1185, though it was destroyed in 1870. The only example comes from a copy made in 1818 by Christian Maurice Engelhardt .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hortus_deliciarum



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Mario M.




Location: Croatia
Joined: 31 Mar 2016

Posts: 107

PostPosted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 1:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
It's possible that an early masked helmet could have had the face plate driven under the chin and into the neck making it impossible to remove.


That would require the faceplate to be nearly twice as long as the downwards length of the face;

http://i.imgur.com/57G3sCi.png

“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,290

PostPosted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 2:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A curvature to the face plate could be driven further beneath the chin.


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Timm Radt




Location: Germany
Joined: 12 Sep 2011

Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 2:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,

I don´t know if one can speak of enclosed helmets but early great helmets had the neck enclosed. But this type appeared only in the early 13th century. Here is a collection.

Cheers, Timm



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Timm Radt




Location: Germany
Joined: 12 Sep 2011

Posts: 21

PostPosted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 2:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here some more faceplates...


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Mario M.




Location: Croatia
Joined: 31 Mar 2016

Posts: 107

PostPosted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 2:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is becoming rather tedious.

So, apart from the 1177 incident, the earliest example of an enclosed helm is the second seal of Richard I from the 1190s?

Is anyone against this statement?



.

“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
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Mario M.




Location: Croatia
Joined: 31 Mar 2016

Posts: 107

PostPosted: Mon 20 Jun, 2016 6:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here I come again;

This seal keeps sending me to André de Montbard as if it either depicts him or was his own;



I doubt it was his own seal considering he died in 1156.

Could anyone provide any information about it?

“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
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Timm Radt




Location: Germany
Joined: 12 Sep 2011

Posts: 21

PostPosted: Wed 22 Jun, 2016 12:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,

I have no detailed information on the person and this seal at all. But judging from your picture this seal does not stem from the 12th century but from the early 13th century - i.e. 1210-1230. This view is not only based on the helmet (see the comparison examples I have posted) but also on the form of the shield and the fact that seals of the 12th century show the mounted knight with an uncovered maille-shirt.

Sometimes seals were faked decades after the "seals´ owner" died. Maybe this is the case here?

Cheers, Timm
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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Posts: 2,254

PostPosted: Wed 22 Jun, 2016 2:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here you can find some more info on early faceplate helmets:
http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=297...ate+helmet

My take on this is that even a regular nasal helmet should sit with an edge immediately above the ears. If the helmet is deformed and caved in above both ears, it might press itself into the coif and padded cap and into your skull enough that it is very uncomfortable or even dangerous to pull off without straightening the helmet first. Maybe that happened and biographer exaggerated it a bit and that's it.
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Wed 22 Jun, 2016 9:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Do you count the effigy of William Clito as showing an enclosed mask? If so, then we have evidence they existed circa 1170 AD, although seemed to be rare. As well, according to John France, "between 1160 and 1171 the Count of Loos wrote to Louis VII of France asking for a masked helm, which suggests that they were then a novelty."
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,290

PostPosted: Wed 22 Jun, 2016 3:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka Borscak wrote:
Here you can find some more info on early faceplate helmets:
http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=297...ate+helmet

My take on this is that even a regular nasal helmet should sit with an edge immediately above the ears. If the helmet is deformed and caved in above both ears, it might press itself into the coif and padded cap and into your skull enough that it is very uncomfortable or even dangerous to pull off without straightening the helmet first. Maybe that happened and biographer exaggerated it a bit and that's it.


The text of L'Histoire de Guillaume le Maréchal, line 3111 specifically mentions the helm being caved in at the neck.
"Entor le col ert si serrez "


Craig Peters wrote:
Do you count the effigy of William Clito as showing an enclosed mask? If so, then we have evidence they existed circa 1170 AD, although seemed to be rare. As well, according to John France, "between 1160 and 1171 the Count of Loos wrote to Louis VII of France asking for a masked helm, which suggests that they were then a novelty."

Craig, My concerns with the Clito effigy are noted in Luka's linked thread. A 1641 drawing of the effigy shows a date of M.CC.XX.VII carved into the stone. The Count died in 1127, and the effigy is dated 1227 in the earliest drawing, and 1127 in later ones. The effigy is now destroyed, so we can't verify which is correct. A later dating would have to be based on purchase accounts, or it's only a guess based on the style of armor.

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