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Eric S
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 Posted: Wed 15 Jun, 2016 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Luka Borscak wrote: | | Well, actually, the shirt below is on it's way to me. It's a used shirt but in like new condition, made by a maker in Poland. I think it will be perfect for my later 13th and 14th century reenacting. |
Much nicer than anything I see being made commercially now.
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Philip Dyer
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| Posted: Thu 16 Jun, 2016 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| Eric S wrote: | | Philip Dyer wrote: |
He is basically implying that he has worn his mail shirts regularly and his shirts have cleaned itself via self abrasion. |
He didnt say that at all, let Luca answer for himself. If you have your own personal experience than please present it. I own several European hauberks along with Indian, Ottoman, Persian hauberks and coifs and I am saying there is absolutely NO way that any of these would be COMPLETELY self cleaning no matter what Dan says. When observed in person anyone could easily see this, Dans experience with a SMALL patch of mail does not translate to a full hauberk, the links do not just spin around like the rims on your car, they will not just simply clean themselves off and keep nice and shiny. Why do some people here insist on trying to rationalize Dans unsubstantiated statements? |
How many of those have you actually worn? Also, just stari8ng at something is fucking awful way to draw conclusions about something. For example, a person could look a full set of plate armor, with no wearing experience, no reading of accounts come to the completely fool hardly conclusion that full suits are extremely heavy and immobile and that mail doesn't protect because it full of really tiny holes and hangs on a display stand like clothing. Also, what makes you think he only has experience with small patches of mail? I thought he as worn Hamata before for Roman army Reenactment and gathered his conclusions from reading accounts posted on Roman army talk. Also, he has wrote an article on chain maille so thoroughly cited that is has deemed by Nathan Robinson, the founder of this website, to be permanent addition of this website, in the features page. https://myArmoury.com/feature_mail.html
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Eric S
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| Posted: Thu 16 Jun, 2016 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Philip Dyer wrote: | | Also, what makes you think he only has experience with small patches of mail? I thought he as worn Hamata before for Roman army Reenactment and gathered his conclusions from reading accounts posted on Roman army talk. Also, he has wrote an article on chain maille so thoroughly cited that is has deemed by Nathan Robinson, the founder of this website, to be permanent addition of this website, in the features page. https://myArmoury.com/feature_mail.html |
You are quite the admirer, Dan should be thrilled.
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Fri 17 Jun, 2016 2:10 am Post subject: |
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I said that every ring CAN move the whole circle, but because of the rivets, movement would probably be enough to clean MOST of the ring surface MOST of the time. I didn't make any absolute claims. I don't want to let my hauberk rust, but for now, even when worn in wet conditions, because of friction rust was able to form only immediately around the rivets, the rest of the ring surface is rust free. Solid rings that have no rivets are completely clean.
Last edited by Luka Borscak on Fri 17 Jun, 2016 12:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Eric S
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| Posted: Fri 17 Jun, 2016 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| Luka Borscak wrote: | | I said that every ring CAN move the whole circle, but because of the rivets, movement would probably be enough to clean MOST of the ring surface MOST of the time. I didn,t made any absolute claims. I don't want to let my hauberk rust, but for now, even when worn in wet conditions, because of friction rust was able to form only immediately around the rivets, the rest of the ring surface is rust free. Solid rings that have no rivets are completely clean. |
Thanks Luca, at least someone here can make a statement based on personal experience. If there is rust left even just around the rivets that would have to be cleaned by an alternate method, not quite the same as Dan states.
| Dan Howard wrote: | | The entire link is abraded, not just part of it. Mail does not need cleaning if it is worn regularly. |
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Arne G.
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| Posted: Fri 17 Jun, 2016 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Erik D. Schmid wrote: | | Luka Borscak wrote: | | The problem is that the maker is no longer making mail. So if one wants a good quality mail, he has nowhere to go for a relatively affordable price. One shirt from the same maker and same owner, but longer and with long sleeves sold here on myArmoury recently for 700 pounds. This one I payed 450. New they were more expensive of course. |
Unfortunately this is only going to get worse. The mail industry in India has shrunk substantially in the last couple of years. Approximately 12 workers out of the previous high of around 250 in various villages. 15 Contractors down to about 2 working with 4 exporters. People are simply not wanting to do that type of work for low wages any longer. With interest in the product fading, it's no wonder that the quality never improved. There was just no reason to invest more money in something that was quickly losing popularity. Out of all the reenactment products offered, demand for mail has decreased the most by a very large percentage. I highly doubt that the market will ever turn around.  |
Interesting insight - I had no idea such a relatively small group of people was producing all of the modern mass produced riveted mail.
Out of curiosity, do you still make anything?
BTW, long time no post. Good to see you again.
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Fri 17 Jun, 2016 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Eric S wrote: | | Luka Borscak wrote: | | I said that every ring CAN move the whole circle, but because of the rivets, movement would probably be enough to clean MOST of the ring surface MOST of the time. I didn,t made any absolute claims. I don't want to let my hauberk rust, but for now, even when worn in wet conditions, because of friction rust was able to form only immediately around the rivets, the rest of the ring surface is rust free. Solid rings that have no rivets are completely clean. |
Thanks Luca, at least someone here can make a statement based on personal experience. If there is rust left even just around the rivets that would have to be cleaned by an alternate method, not quite the same as Dan states.
| Dan Howard wrote: | | The entire link is abraded, not just part of it. Mail does not need cleaning if it is worn regularly. |
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It might be different with a rings with better rivets. Watershed shape of original rivets is much gentler and it might be that it cleans itself with friction as easily as the rest of the ring. I will see how will it function with my new mail when it arrives and I start to use it.
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Eric S
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| Posted: Fri 17 Jun, 2016 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Luka Borscak wrote: | | It might be different with a rings with better rivets. Watershed shape of original rivets is much gentler and it might be that it cleans itself with friction as easily as the rest of the ring. I will see how will it function with my new mail when it arrives and I start to use it. |
That would be interesting to see. I have an Indian mail and plate shirt that was cleaned by bead basting, I mean clean and shiny, but if you look closely there are still very small areas of rust on areas of the links were the beads just did not reach, it would take a lot of extra work and time to get it all removed.
Last edited by Eric S on Fri 17 Jun, 2016 2:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Fri 17 Jun, 2016 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Well, we will see.  I'm really looking forward to it. 
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Fri 17 Jun, 2016 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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Dan, I've seen you have written once that wedge riveted mail was first mentioned in Germany in 1237. Do you have any more details about that? Where was it mentioned?
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Eric S
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| Posted: Fri 17 Jun, 2016 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Luka Borscak wrote: | | Dan, I've seen you have written once that wedge riveted mail was first mentioned in Germany in 1237. Do you have any more details about that? Where was it mentioned? |
I have read something like this as well but I have never seen any proof of this, evidence seems to indicate that wedge riveted mail used alternating solid and riveted links when it was first introduced just like the round riveted mail it eventually replaced did, the use of solid links died out and all wedge riveted mail became the norm, possibly in the late 1300s to early 1400s.
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Fri 17 Jun, 2016 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Eric S wrote: | | Luka Borscak wrote: | | Dan, I've seen you have written once that wedge riveted mail was first mentioned in Germany in 1237. Do you have any more details about that? Where was it mentioned? |
I have read something like this as well but I have never seen any proof of this, evidence seems to indicate that wedge riveted mail used alternating solid and riveted links when it was first introduced just like the round riveted mail it eventually replaced did, the use of solid links died out and all wedge riveted mail became the norm, possibly in the late 1300s to early 1400s. |
Surviving examples suggest such a conclusion. But I thought literary evidence may provide some more precise dating...
Like this evidence for all riveted mail in 1316 and 1337 (slightly past the half of the first page):
http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=291...aille+mail
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Eric S
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| Posted: Fri 17 Jun, 2016 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Luka Borscak wrote: | | Eric S wrote: | | Luka Borscak wrote: | | Dan, I've seen you have written once that wedge riveted mail was first mentioned in Germany in 1237. Do you have any more details about that? Where was it mentioned? |
I have read something like this as well but I have never seen any proof of this, evidence seems to indicate that wedge riveted mail used alternating solid and riveted links when it was first introduced just like the round riveted mail it eventually replaced did, the use of solid links died out and all wedge riveted mail became the norm, possibly in the late 1300s to early 1400s. |
Surviving examples suggest such a conclusion. But I thought literary evidence may provide some more precise dating...
Like this evidence for all riveted mail in 1316 and 1337 (slightly past the half of the first page):
http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=291...aille+mail |
Luka, the terms used are still not completely understood ( "It is believed this "highly-nailed" refers to mail of all riveted construction") there is still a good amount of guessing going on. Martin Burgess dates the disappearence of solid links from the late 14th to early 15th century in his essay "A Mail Shirt from the Hearst Collection", if you have not read it you should, there is a lot of good information on the transition for demi riveted to all riveted mail in Europe.
http://www.erikds.com/pdf/tmrs_pdf_13.pdf
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Sat 18 Jun, 2016 3:11 am Post subject: |
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Interesting article. I have to research Erik's site better. Yes, I agree we can't be sure with medieval terminology if they really mean "all riveted" when they say "high riveted" but English passage for equipping the navy says "half riveted
[demi enclous] and fully riveted [tut enclous]." "Tut enclous" should really mean all riveted.
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Erik D. Schmid
Location: St. Cloud, MN Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Sat 18 Jun, 2016 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| Arne G. wrote: | | Erik D. Schmid wrote: | | Luka Borscak wrote: | | The problem is that the maker is no longer making mail. So if one wants a good quality mail, he has nowhere to go for a relatively affordable price. One shirt from the same maker and same owner, but longer and with long sleeves sold here on myArmoury recently for 700 pounds. This one I payed 450. New they were more expensive of course. |
Unfortunately this is only going to get worse. The mail industry in India has shrunk substantially in the last couple of years. Approximately 12 workers out of the previous high of around 250 in various villages. 15 Contractors down to about 2 working with 4 exporters. People are simply not wanting to do that type of work for low wages any longer. With interest in the product fading, it's no wonder that the quality never improved. There was just no reason to invest more money in something that was quickly losing popularity. Out of all the reenactment products offered, demand for mail has decreased the most by a very large percentage. I highly doubt that the market will ever turn around. |
Interesting insight - I had no idea such a relatively small group of people was producing all of the modern mass produced riveted mail.
Out of curiosity, do you still make anything?
BTW, long time no post. Good to see you again. |
Thanks. I've only got one project at the moment. It's a Roman LHS. Other than that, no. There's not much of a market left. The Indians pretty much took care of that.
http://www.erikds.com
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sat 18 Jun, 2016 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| Erik D. Schmid wrote: | | There's not much of a market left. The Indians pretty much took care of that. |
Erik, I think the blame is with the buyers, they either do not have the money, or are not willing to pay for high quality historically accurate reproduction mail, if they were willing to pay people would be making it.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sat 18 Jun, 2016 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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Agreed. Even the Indian mail is degrading in quality because of the unwillingness of customers to pay for quality work. Look at the one decent example in this very thread. The only reason it was purchased was because it was heavily discounted - it can't be produced at that price. Re-enactors complaining about the poor quality of the riveted mail on the market today only have themselves to blame.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Erik D. Schmid
Location: St. Cloud, MN Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 5:35 am Post subject: |
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The blame is only partly with the buyers. India has had the ability to produce high quality mail for many years now, but chose not to. It was all about keeping their profit margin as high as possible. High quality mail is not extremely difficult to make, but it is very labour intensive. At my best I could do about five hundred riveted links per day. Double if using solid links. The downside is that it literally kills your hands and forearms. Add to that the fact that there are so few buyers who would be willing to pay for something like that and you can see why the Indian stuff became so popular.
Even if there were more people making good stuff, the market is simply not there. For that matter, was it ever really? An Indian shirt sells for around $500 - $1,000 give or take. In order to make it worthwhile for me, I would have to charge around ten times that. The market for that is non-existent. That's why I moved on to other things. Didn't want to end up homeless by sticking with a labour of love. lol
http://www.erikds.com
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 5:56 am Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | Agreed. Even the Indian mail is degrading in quality because of the unwillingness of customers to pay for quality work. Look at the one decent example in this very thread. The only reason it was purchased was because it was heavily discounted - it can't be produced at that price. Re-enactors complaining about the poor quality of the riveted mail on the market today only have themselves to blame. |
You have to be aware that much of reenactment happens in countries with lower Financial standard than Northern/Western Europe, USA and Australia. Croatia, Slovenia, Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Ukraine, Serbia and so on... We just don't have the same standard as UK or USA. This mail I bought and paid 450 pounds is worth average salary here in Croatia. Almost two of my salaries because I'm a prentice teacher. What is an average salary in UK or USA?
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| Luka Borscak wrote: | | Dan Howard wrote: | | Agreed. Even the Indian mail is degrading in quality because of the unwillingness of customers to pay for quality work. Look at the one decent example in this very thread. The only reason it was purchased was because it was heavily discounted - it can't be produced at that price. Re-enactors complaining about the poor quality of the riveted mail on the market today only have themselves to blame. |
You have to be aware that much of reenactment happens in countries with lower Financial standard than Northern/Western Europe, USA and Australia. Croatia, Slovenia, Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Ukraine, Serbia and so on... We just don't have the same standard as UK or USA. This mail I bought and paid 450 pounds is worth average salary here in Croatia. Almost two of my salaries because I'm a prentice teacher. What is an average salary in UK or USA? |
If you don't think it is worth the money then don't buy it. But you can't complain when everyone else does the same thing and the product is no longer available. Historically, mail cost a lot more than two weeks wages. I only commission one project every year or two because it takes me that long to save the money.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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