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Luka Borscak
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 Posted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 8:11 am Post subject: |
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Double post.
Last edited by Luka Borscak on Sun 19 Jun, 2016 1:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | Luka Borscak wrote: | | Dan Howard wrote: | | Agreed. Even the Indian mail is degrading in quality because of the unwillingness of customers to pay for quality work. Look at the one decent example in this very thread. The only reason it was purchased was because it was heavily discounted - it can't be produced at that price. Re-enactors complaining about the poor quality of the riveted mail on the market today only have themselves to blame. |
You have to be aware that much of reenactment happens in countries with lower Financial standard than Northern/Western Europe, USA and Australia. Croatia, Slovenia, Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Ukraine, Serbia and so on... We just don't have the same standard as UK or USA. This mail I bought and paid 450 pounds is worth average salary here in Croatia. Almost two of my salaries because I'm a prentice teacher. What is an average salary in UK or USA? |
If you don't think it is worth the money then don't buy it. But you can't complain when everyone else does the same thing and the product is no longer available. Historically, mail cost a lot more than two weeks wages. I only commission one project every year or two because it takes me that long to save the money. |
I never said it's not worth it. If I was aware of a maker such as Rivetus who is still taking commissions and is charging about 1000 euros for a short sleeved shirt, either round riveted/half solid or full wedge riveted or half solid/half wedge riveted I would probably order it and gather enough money in a year since a year is usually a waiting time for such order. I'm just saying it's much more difficult for an average (usually young) reenactor to gather money for such projects in eastern or south eastern Europe than in Western or Northern Europe. Since that is the situation here, and these countries are quite a big part of reenactment scene, I'm not at all surprised such products are not in demand enough to be on the market. I don't like that you put words I did not say in my mouth. I am basically saying the same thing as you, but I am trying to explain to you why is that so in this part of the world. Life is hard and it's unacceptable for many people to pay such prices for a hobby. Even if they could, their family surely wouldn't appreciate it, no matter how long they saved the money. It's irrelevant how much money mail cost in period. In period mail or other armour was a necessity for a man who expected to see military action. And it would protect him and after him maybe several generations of warriors. Now it's just a part of a hobby.
Last edited by Luka Borscak on Sun 19 Jun, 2016 1:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Philip Dyer
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| Posted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| Luka Borscak wrote: | | Dan Howard wrote: | | Luka Borscak wrote: | | Dan Howard wrote: | | Agreed. Even the Indian mail is degrading in quality because of the unwillingness of customers to pay for quality work. Look at the one decent example in this very thread. The only reason it was purchased was because it was heavily discounted - it can't be produced at that price. Re-enactors complaining about the poor quality of the riveted mail on the market today only have themselves to blame. |
You have to be aware that much of reenactment happens in countries with lower Financial standard than Northern/Western Europe, USA and Australia. Croatia, Slovenia, Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Ukraine, Serbia and so on... We just don't have the same standard as UK or USA. This mail I bought and paid 450 pounds is worth average salary here in Croatia. Almost two of my salaries because I'm a prentice teacher. What is an average salary in UK or USA? |
If you don't think it is worth the money then don't buy it. But you can't complain when everyone else does the same thing and the product is no longer available. Historically, mail cost a lot more than two weeks wages. I only commission one project every year or two because it takes me that long to save the money. |
I never said it's not worth it. If I was aware of a maker such as Rivetus who is still taking commissions and is charging about 1000 euros for a short sleeved shirt, either round riveted/half solid or full wedge riveted or half solid/half wedge riveted I would probably order it and gather enough money in a year since a year is usually a waiting time for such order. I'm just saying it's much more difficult for an average (usually young) reenactor to gather money for such projects in eastern or south eastern Europe than in Western or Northern Europe. Since that is the situation here, and these countries are quite a big part of reenactment scene, I'm not at all surprised such products are not in demand enough to be on the market. I don't like that you put words I did not say in my mouth. I am basically saying the same thing as you, but I am trying to explain to you why is that so in this part of the world. Life is hard and it's unacceptable for many people to pay such prices for a hobby. Even if they could, their family surely wouldn't appreciate it, no matter how long they saved the money. It's irrelevant how much money mail cost in period. In period mail or other armour was a necessity for a man who expected to see military action. And it would protect him and after him maybe several generations of warriors. No it's just a part of a hobby. |
^This, also, looting was something that is widely practiced back then, most people that could afford armor that wasn't second hand had the social standing to live off other's peoples hard work and whereas in period, you could become filfthy rich being a skilled enough fighter, today, it is the opposite. It is financial misfortune that is no such think has the HEMA/ BOTN/ SCA/ ...... insert of Historical reenactment group here version of the NFL
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| Erik D. Schmid wrote: | The blame is only partly with the buyers. India has had the ability to produce high quality mail for many years now, but chose not to. It was all about keeping their profit margin as high as possible. High quality mail is not extremely difficult to make, but it is very labour intensive. At my best I could do about five hundred riveted links per day. Double if using solid links. The downside is that it literally kills your hands and forearms. Add to that the fact that there are so few buyers who would be willing to pay for something like that and you can see why the Indian stuff became so popular.
Even if there were more people making good stuff, the market is simply not there. For that matter, was it ever really? An Indian shirt sells for around $500 - $1,000 give or take. In order to make it worthwhile for me, I would have to charge around ten times that. The market for that is non-existent. That's why I moved on to other things. Didn't want to end up homeless by sticking with a labour of love. lol |
Erik,
Is there any way to mechanize part of the process, without it being prohibitively expensive, so that you don't have to ruin your hands and forearms, and so that you can produce greater numbers of rings per day?
It strikes me that there has to be a way to make higher quality mail that's more efficient and doesn't simply depend upon Indian manufacturers to do it.
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Mario M.
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| Posted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 8:55 am Post subject: |
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What about welded mail?
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“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Mario M. wrote: | What about welded mail?
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It exist. But it isn't historical.
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Craig Peters wrote: | | Erik D. Schmid wrote: | The blame is only partly with the buyers. India has had the ability to produce high quality mail for many years now, but chose not to. It was all about keeping their profit margin as high as possible. High quality mail is not extremely difficult to make, but it is very labour intensive. At my best I could do about five hundred riveted links per day. Double if using solid links. The downside is that it literally kills your hands and forearms. Add to that the fact that there are so few buyers who would be willing to pay for something like that and you can see why the Indian stuff became so popular.
Even if there were more people making good stuff, the market is simply not there. For that matter, was it ever really? An Indian shirt sells for around $500 - $1,000 give or take. In order to make it worthwhile for me, I would have to charge around ten times that. The market for that is non-existent. That's why I moved on to other things. Didn't want to end up homeless by sticking with a labour of love. lol |
Erik,
Is there any way to mechanize part of the process, without it being prohibitively expensive, so that you don't have to ruin your hands and forearms, and so that you can produce greater numbers of rings per day?
It strikes me that there has to be a way to make higher quality mail that's more efficient and doesn't simply depend upon Indian manufacturers to do it. |
Define "prohibitively expensive", Azon can make welded stainless butcher's gloves and shark suits, but is having difficulty competeing against Kevlar. Azon isn't interested in retooling for a larger sized ring because the market isn't large enough to pay for the machine. Erik can't make a living making riveted mail. I can't make a living welding mail. Outsourcing to India, Pakistan, Vietnam, etc. allows an affordable product. There's more than enough business to keep more than one man busy using hand manufacturing, but costs would have to at least triple in the US or Western Europe for a man to sustain himself in poverty.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Arne G.
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| Posted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Erik D. Schmid wrote: | The blame is only partly with the buyers. India has had the ability to produce high quality mail for many years now, but chose not to. It was all about keeping their profit margin as high as possible. High quality mail is not extremely difficult to make, but it is very labour intensive. At my best I could do about five hundred riveted links per day. Double if using solid links. The downside is that it literally kills your hands and forearms. Add to that the fact that there are so few buyers who would be willing to pay for something like that and you can see why the Indian stuff became so popular.
Even if there were more people making good stuff, the market is simply not there. For that matter, was it ever really? An Indian shirt sells for around $500 - $1,000 give or take. In order to make it worthwhile for me, I would have to charge around ten times that. The market for that is non-existent. That's why I moved on to other things. Didn't want to end up homeless by sticking with a labour of love. lol |
Some observations:
1) You are rather difficult to get ahold of. For example, your resurrected website does not appear to have any contact information for you. Also, you don't really post any prices - how much would you charge for a byrnie or haubergeon? What size rings? Based on the above I would assume somewhere in the $5K-$10K range, but I have no idea beyond that. Having an idea of the potential outlay helps, even if it is very expensive.
2) Consider a FAQ page to better educate potential customers. Explain the short cuts taken by the mass produced mail makers and how your products is different/better. I know some of this fairly well, but many don't.
3) Something I've noticed too is that the upper limit for most purchases in our community tends to be around $1000, perhaps up to $2000 depending on budget/lust level. I base this upon my own personal past purchases (my single largest was for a pattern welded blade which I am presently hilting) and the price points of higher end sword makers such as Albion or Arms & Armor. Most of their offerings tend to be in the several hundred to couple thousand range, depending on what exactly it is.
Now, I'm not suggesting a reduction in price for your work. Rather, my question is, what can you do for someone in the above price range? Could you make a coif, like that from Tofta or the one in the National Scottish Museum? How about a standard, such as the Moorgate example? You might get a bunch more interest from folks who appreciate the finer things, but can't spend what they would spend on a new car to get a full panoply on what is essentially a hobby and not a necessity.
By way of analogy Hrisoulas has a wide range of offerings, from simple daggers to high end traditionally forged katana. Very few can afford the latter, but most could at least spring for a mono-steel dagger, and for those with a bit more money a pattern weld dagger or mono-steel arming sword. Hrisoulas isn't compromising his prices, necessarily, but he does have lower end options for those who want his work, but can't justify $3K+ for his best pieces. Seems to me you could do something similar - you may not have a lot of folks that can afford an all wedge riveted haubergeon, but you might get some takers on a coif or standard. Even if a reenactor has to fudge some parts of their harness, they might want to have at least one piece that is spot on correct, that they can point to as a solid example of what was actually done in period, and contrast with the compromise pieces on the rest of their kit.
4) Other ideas
- How much of a hauberk/byrnie/haubergeon will $1K or so get me? What I'm getting at is will you be willing to do, say, the upper chest, beginning of the sleeves, etc. so as to take out most of the hardest tailoring aspects, and then let the customer finish the rest by selling or providing sources for appropriate rings and tools? Sort of like buying a bare blade and finishing it yourself.
- Would you consider making little 4"x4" or perhaps 6"x6" "sample" pieces? I could use something like that for Living History displays, just to show the different techniques for mail construction.
- If you don't really want to do the work anymore, consider selling books with instructions on how to do it, along with offering any specialized riveting tools and similar. There are plenty of folks who have the time, but not the money, to do this.
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Mario M.
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| Posted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Luka Borscak wrote: | | It exist. But it isn't historical. |
I thought they found numerous forge welded examples to date?
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“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Mario M. wrote: | | Luka Borscak wrote: | | It exist. But it isn't historical. |
I thought they found numerous forge welded examples to date? |
The forge-welded links were the solid rows, not the riveted rows. They still used riveted links.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Mario M.
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| Posted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: |
The forge-welded links were the solid rows, not the riveted rows. They still used riveted links. |
Yes, but since obtaining historically accurate looking riveted mail is rather difficult, welded could be the better option that cheap riveted mail.
From the images I see, non-historical modern welded mail looks very close to historical welded+riveted mail;
“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
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Philip Dyer
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| Posted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Mario M. wrote: | | Dan Howard wrote: |
The forge-welded links were the solid rows, not the riveted rows. They still used riveted links. |
Yes, but since obtaining historically accurate looking riveted mail is rather difficult, welded could be the better option that cheap riveted mail.
From the images I see, non-historical modern welded mail looks very close to historical welded+riveted mail;
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Good point, it would also be easier to mechanize since it would is precise automatic welding machine instead a drifting machine and rivet pusher and flattener. I don't think tailoring is ever going to be simplified enough for mechanization, everyone is different, would to many variables to compute. Case to prove the point, custom fitted clothing still costs quite bit more that clothing with a standard S,M,L, XL and humanity as been making and fiddling on the process to make clothes cheaper for way than mail has been around. Another, bit rougher example of welded mail. http://www.weldedchainmail.com/
http://www.ringmesh.com/ There is nothing to there to arade against the skin/ clothing, popout, and if welded really well. like Mario's example, you would have to stare it to notice there is no rivets there.
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Philip Dyer wrote: | | if welded really well. like Mario's example, you would have to stare it to notice there is no rivets there. |
Philip, if you are talking about this image, it is Ottoman alternating solid and riveted mail, not welded.
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Mario M.
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| Posted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Eric S wrote: | | Philip, if you are talking about this image, it is Ottoman alternating solid and riveted mail, not welded. |
What led you to state that?
I took it from this thread and they state welded first after which one user denies the Ottomans as being one of the possibilities;
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10831
“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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Eric is right. The links in your photo are riveted.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
Last edited by Dan Howard on Sun 19 Jun, 2016 10:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mario M.
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| Posted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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Second edit;
The image is supposed to depict welded+riveted construction, the presence of riveted rings is not the issue.
Eric is debating the other rings to be solid instead of welded.
“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
Last edited by Mario M. on Sun 19 Jun, 2016 10:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sun 19 Jun, 2016 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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Links that are severely worn can conceaI the rivets. It might be possible to make welded mail with a similar appearance. You could even stamp the overlap so that it looks like a rivet.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Eric S
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| Posted: Mon 20 Jun, 2016 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| Mario M. wrote: | Second edit;
The image is supposed to depict welded+riveted construction, the presence of riveted rings is not the issue.
Eric is debating the other rings to be solid instead of welded. |
Mario I assumed that Phillip thought that the image showed all welded links, my mistake. It is clearly solid and riveted links. Solid links are either stamped or welded, Indian solid links are known to be welded even though they often appear to be stamped but there are photos showing delaminated welds on some solid links. The mail shown in this image is thought to be Circassian Ottoman mail, you can assume that the solid links on this example are welded as the links are round, but you can not really see any details of the solid links, below is a much clearer image of the same mail.
Indian 17th century solid and riveted mail, the red arrow shows a delaminated weld on a solid link.
Ottoman solid and riveted mail, this is typical Ottoman mail from the 16th century, any idea how these solid links were made, they are not round, the outside edges of the solid links have flat areas which makes them look faceted.
Last edited by Eric S on Mon 20 Jun, 2016 9:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Erik D. Schmid
Location: St. Cloud, MN Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Mon 20 Jun, 2016 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| Arne G. wrote: | Some observations:
1) You are rather difficult to get ahold of. For example, your resurrected website does not appear to have any contact information for you. Also, you don't really post any prices - how much would you charge for a byrnie or haubergeon? What size rings? Based on the above I would assume somewhere in the $5K-$10K range, but I have no idea beyond that. Having an idea of the potential outlay helps, even if it is very expensive.
I am on Facebook though.  The lack of contact information was a slight oversight, but one that is not really a big deal considering that I'm not actively crafting mail any longer. The market for pieces in that price range dried up a long time ago.
2) Consider a FAQ page to better educate potential customers. Explain the short cuts taken by the mass produced mail makers and how your products is different/better. I know some of this fairly well, but many don't.
3) Something I've noticed too is that the upper limit for most purchases in our community tends to be around $1000, perhaps up to $2000 depending on budget/lust level. I base this upon my own personal past purchases (my single largest was for a pattern welded blade which I am presently hilting) and the price points of higher end sword makers such as Albion or Arms & Armor. Most of their offerings tend to be in the several hundred to couple thousand range, depending on what exactly it is.
Now, I'm not suggesting a reduction in price for your work. Rather, my question is, what can you do for someone in the above price range? Could you make a coif, like that from Tofta or the one in the National Scottish Museum? How about a standard, such as the Moorgate example? You might get a bunch more interest from folks who appreciate the finer things, but can't spend what they would spend on a new car to get a full panoply on what is essentially a hobby and not a necessity.
4) Other ideas
- How much of a hauberk/byrnie/haubergeon will $1K or so get me? What I'm getting at is will you be willing to do, say, the upper chest, beginning of the sleeves, etc. so as to take out most of the hardest tailoring aspects, and then let the customer finish the rest by selling or providing sources for appropriate rings and tools? Sort of like buying a bare blade and finishing it yourself.
- Would you consider making little 4"x4" or perhaps 6"x6" "sample" pieces? I could use something like that for Living History displays, just to show the different techniques for mail construction.
- If you don't really want to do the work anymore, consider selling books with instructions on how to do it, along with offering any specialized riveting tools and similar. There are plenty of folks who have the time, but not the money, to do this.
Nope. Tried this years ago with no success. As I've said, the market is not there and hasn't been for some time. Even small items take time to make. Time that you will not be adequately compensated for. in all honesty, the mail market has always been rather small. It was only a matter of time before it disappeared altogether. Coifs average around 6,000 links. That's roughly a couple weeks worth of work. In order for it to be worth my time, I'd have to charge around $800 +. Demand was just not consistent enough, which is why I stopped doing it for the most part. |
| Craig Peters wrote: | Erik,
Is there any way to mechanize part of the process, without it being prohibitively expensive, so that you don't have to ruin your hands and forearms, and so that you can produce greater numbers of rings per day?
It strikes me that there has to be a way to make higher quality mail that's more efficient and doesn't simply depend upon Indian manufacturers to do it.
Almost every step in my process is done by hand. This is how the authentic look is maintained. Labor is easily 99% of the price of mail. I've streamlined the process as much as possible to make it compatible with the semi-mechanized process that is used in India. The look was good, but the price still ended up being several times higher than what they are currently charging. The market wouldn't bear it, so the project was dropped. Understand that the process used for making high quality mail that is also accurate looking can not be done with the same level of automation that welded mail can. |
http://www.erikds.com
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Eric S
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| Posted: Mon 20 Jun, 2016 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Matrio, that was in 2009, since then Arzi from Oriental Arms has updated his description and images. What made people think that this was not Ottoman mail was the fact that the riveted links appear to be wedge riveted (not confirmed by the owner), but there are other examples of Circassian wedge riveted mail, some are in the Met Museum.
| Quote: | | This Mail shirt is Ottoman, 18C. probably made in Circassia area. Heavy, about 13 Kg, 38 inches long, 42 wide (extended sleeves). Heavy gauge steel rings with alternating rows arrangement: One riveted rings and one forge welded rings. This arrangement of rings is attributed to Circassia, and these mails were sold all over the middle east. This mail was found in the old city of Acre and was on display for several years in the Maritime Museum in Haifa, Israel. |
http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=6921
Here is another very similar hauberk, the links are very similar as well.
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