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Kirk K.
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 Posted: Sat 28 May, 2016 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| J. Nicolaysen wrote: | | Might also look into the ahlspiess, a similar weapon of a different locale. |
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahlspiess
Thanks, good tip. It looks very much like a goedendag and the spike is similar but the ahlspeiss is functionally different. It lacks the heavy club head, making it a pure thrusting weapon. It has a flat ring at the base of the spike, just like the goedendag. In both weapons the ring prevents overpenetration in a thrust. But the thin ring, spike and haft could never be used as a braced sharpened stave to stop a charging horse like the goedendag supposedly was. Bottom line: the ahlspeiss is a single-purpose thrusting weapon and the goedendag is a multi-purpose club/short pike/sharp stave. But the visual similarities are striking and it is an interesting weapon.
A question for those with pole arm sparring (fencing?) experience: would the ring on the ahlspeiss be at all useful to help parry, say, a spear thrust? Just curious.
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Kirk K.
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| Posted: Sat 28 May, 2016 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Mario M. wrote: | | Kirk K. wrote: | | I stated pretty clearly that it was pieces of 1/8" face-hardened plate. |
...and you stating something is not proof. |
Please state plainly exactly what you are trying to say here.
---------- | Quote: | | Kirk K. wrote: | | third, you seem to be implying that a 15th century French breastplate is stronger and more resistant to puncture than what I was using. |
Yes it absolutely is, otherwise you would not be able to penetrate it in the manner you stated. |
Your argument he seems to be, 'I know I am right, it does not agree with what I know, therefore you are wrong'. Well, at least you have a healthy amount of self-confidence. 😃 It might be useful to elaborate a bit more.
---------- | Quote: | | Kirk K. wrote: | | Putting aside the advances that have occurred in metallurgy and hardening techniques in the last eight centuries |
Read up on the works of Dr. Williams. |
Thanks for the reference. Unfotunately, while I would dearly love to own a copy, The Knight and the Blast Furnace retails at $300+. That is exactly the kind of material I love, detailed historical weapons technology and general military authoritative writing. Cannot afford it right now, but one day....
---------- | Quote: | | Medieval heat treated plate or even case hardened plate is actually stronger than modern industrial produced sheath steel. The modern steel merely has less slag in it...that's pretty much it. |
Interesting. I thought modern steel had additives that were unavailable in the Medieval period, like chromium, molybdenum, tungsten, manganese, vanadium and so on. It is also useful to remind us all of the context here; the 14th century use of the goedendag against French armor. That was before the invention of crucible steel, so I just wanted to make sure that your comments about steel apply to an early 1300s French breastplate.
---------- | Quote: | | Kirk K. wrote: | | What you apparently do not realize is that modern manufacturers understand this full well. Sheet metal is hot-rolled repeatedly until it is thin enough. This process achieves not only the same changes in the density and crystalline structure that impact forging does, it actually does it better. |
Prove it. |
I do not think anyone would try to argue that hand hammer forging yields a more consistent result than your typical modern computer-controlled steel hot rolling mill, so I think we can grant that advantage to hot-rolled steel.
But more important is how each process changes the crystalline structure of steel. Any sort of decent-quality modern plate will be hot-rolled at a temp above the recrystallization temperature of steel (sometimes referred to as 'hot forging'). So the question is, which process better improves and aligns the 'grain' of the steel.
The quality of steel that is most important in resisting penetration is shear strength. Shear strength is a function of both the hardness and toughness (a term with a very specific meaning when it comes to metallurgy). Hand forging is really effective, especially in the hands of a master craftsman. Modern machine hammer forging is even better and far more consistent. And yet the best process to make the best, toughest pure-steel armor today is hot-rolled. They call it 'rolled homogenous armor' (RHA). But forging is superior, so surely they would use that, no?
Anyways, I cannot find any sort of useful direct comparison between traditions hand-forged plate and modern hot-rolled plate. I need some help with this, so if we have anyone here with metallurgy and forging expertise, please speak up. I would really like to understand the better.
---------- | Quote: | | Kirk K. wrote: | | The goedendag, with a couple more pounds of iron right behind the spike would have obviously gone deeper |
...what?
Added weight to the tip/spike would not help the melee/thrust driven penetration.
The penetration is achieved by the energy delivered through muscle power.
Also, your notion of the goedendag having a couple more pounds of iron on the spike is ludicrous.
I handled a goedendag and most of them are 4 pounds in total.
The heaviest one I ever saw was 4.8 pounds. |
I defer to your hands-on experience with the weight and feel of the weapon. Since you have actually seen a few of these rare weapons 'in the wild' you must have seen a very large number and variety of historic weapons.
---------- | Quote: | | Kirk K. wrote: | | and the halberd only had to go another inch or two to penetrate the padding completely. |
Firstly, there was no quilted armor underneath that breastplate, just empty space, secondly, that "another inch or two" would require far more additional energy or penetrative power than you think. |
I feel a bit stupid for missing the lack of padding. 😠
---------- | Quote: | | Kirk K. wrote: | | Quote: | | BTW, the last video link you provided just throws errors for me. Even a specialized thrusting corseque cannot go through 1.5mm steel; |
Remember that I said I was using 1/8" plate? I guess you did not bother to convert that to metric. 1/8" = 3.175mm, more than twice as thick. |
I did bother to convert, that is why I stated that everything you are speaking is nothing but your own personal fantasies.
Some random dudes penetrating 3mm of steel with an improvised knife spearhead is dubious at best. |
It was not a spear, it was like a Chinese dagger axe.
So far as your clear implications of dishonesty on my part, I guess we are done. I am interested in learning. From long experience I know that trying to converse with someone who readily resorts to gratuitous ad hominems never works out well, so I will no longer be responding to you. Thanks for the useful info you posted, anyways. And one last observation; perhaps you are taking these discussions a bit too seriously. Lighten up.
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Mario M.
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| Posted: Sat 28 May, 2016 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Kirk K. wrote: | | it is also useful to remind us all of the context here; the 14th century use of the goedendag against French armor. |
Yeah, did not work that well all all most of the time;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Saint-Omer
| Kirk K. wrote: | | That was before the invention of crucible steel, so I just wanted to make sure that your comments about steel apply to an early 1300s French breastplate. |
There were no breastplates in the early 1300s.
| Kirk K. wrote: | | I defer to your hands-on experience with the weight and feel of the weapon. |
It is a top heavy wooden stick with a spike.
A poor mans polearm.
| Kirk K. wrote: | | So far as your clear implications of dishonesty on my part, I guess we are done. I am interested in learning. |
Then ask more and state less.
| Kirk K. wrote: | | It was not a spear, it was like a Chinese dagger axe. |
Then I definitely do not believe you.
That is ludicrous.
| Kirk K. wrote: | | Lighten up. |
Well, you claimed something I though ridiculous, I merely called you up on that.
For last, I leave you with a simulated cavalry lance strike into a coat of plates;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4el5gX6_98
The highest velocity strikes managed to deal pathetic penetration, while others resulted in mere dents.
“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
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Philip Dyer
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| Posted: Sat 28 May, 2016 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Mario M. wrote: | | Kirk K. wrote: | | it is also useful to remind us all of the context here; the 14th century use of the goedendag against French armor. |
Yeah, did not work that well all all most of the time;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Saint-Omer
| Kirk K. wrote: | | That was before the invention of crucible steel, so I just wanted to make sure that your comments about steel apply to an early 1300s French breastplate. |
There were no breastplates in the early 1300s.
| Kirk K. wrote: | | I defer to your hands-on experience with the weight and feel of the weapon. |
It is a top heavy wooden stick with a spike.
A poor mans polearm.
| Kirk K. wrote: | | So far as your clear implications of dishonesty on my part, I guess we are done. I am interested in learning. |
Then ask more and state less.
| Kirk K. wrote: | | It was not a spear, it was like a Chinese dagger axe. |
Then I definitely do not believe you.
That is ludicrous.
| Kirk K. wrote: | | Lighten up. |
Well, you claimed something I though ridiculous, I merely called you up on that.
For last, I leave you with a simulated cavalry lance strike into a coat of plates;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4el5gX6_98
The highest velocity strikes managed to deal pathetic penetration, while others resulted in mere dents. |
Also,another thing, he is right that we can produce steel which much stronger than top of the line Medieval breastplates, just look up ballistic steel, but you lucky as hell to find that at a scrap yard or buy in from a store. Most steel you've find from scrap yard is actually a recycled blend of different metals into a sheet, basically steel made to be as cheap as possible and highly inconsistent, a noble in the day would have thrown such steel to the peasants. Just like Special forces agents don't walk around with Standard Private GI gear, they have gear and weapon highly customized for their roles. If the best breastplates that could have been made for the upper crust of society could be reliably (not easily, reliably) be penetrated footman with a club spike spear, Nobles and Men at Arms wouldn't been willing to shrink and ditch shields for bigger weapons.
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Gregg Sobocinski
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| Posted: Sat 28 May, 2016 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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I am not offended in any way. You are making valuable contributions to the thread and challenging my ideas. That is exactly what I seek. How would I learn anything here otherwise? Your politeness is greatly appreciated, but do not hold back. I want to find as much of the truth of the matter as I can, so be as blunt as you need to be. I am.[/quote]
Thanks, Kirk! I wasn't sure of your communication style, so I wanted to error conservative.
My searches for any Battle of Courtrai discussions on this forum didn't pan out. I'm not on other forums, so I know the discussion I remember is in here somewhere....... I'll share it when I find it.
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Sun 29 May, 2016 6:51 am Post subject: |
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I'm not sure if goedendag was used earlier, but I don't think it's mentioned anywhere earlier than this Flemish burgers rising. Also, Flemish burgers don't seem to have won any other significant victories and by the 15th century, I don't think there is much evidence of goedendags still being used regularly in battles. So, it doesn't seem to be anything other that improvised short polearm, relatively cheap and effective enough for fighting cavalry already stopped by some obstacles. It is definitely not long enough to be deployed as an effective weapon for stopping a normal, uninterrupted heavy cavalry charge.
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Philip Melhop
Location: Wokingham, Berkshire, UK Joined: 24 May 2008
Posts: 132
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| Posted: Sun 29 May, 2016 11:11 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Kirk K."] | J. Nicolaysen wrote: | | Might also look into the ahlspiess, a similar weapon of a different locale. |
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahlspiess
Thanks, good tip. It looks very much like a goedendag and the spike is similar but the ahlspeiss is functionally different. It lacks the heavy club head, making it a pure thrusting weapon. It has a flat ring at the base of the spike, just like the goedendag. In both weapons the ring prevents overpenetration in a thrust. But the thin ring, spike and haft could never be used as a braced sharpened stave to stop a charging horse like the goedendag supposedly was. Bottom line: the ahlspeiss is a single-purpose thrusting weapon and the goedendag is a multi-purpose club/short pike/sharp stave. But the visual similarities are striking and it is an interesting weapon.
A question for those with pole arm sparring (fencing?) experience: would the ring on the ahlspeiss be at all useful to help parry, say, a spear thrust? Just curious.[/quote}
I have just read through all of this, interesting in the main if a little misguided at times. As for the Ahlpiess ithe disc at the base of the blade has NOTHING to do with overpenetration, it is a hand guard for goodness sake and if I remember correctly some have two such guards.For better information on all of this , and some decent photos check out John Waldmans "Hafted Weapons in Medieval and Renaissance Europe: The Evolution of European Staff Weapons between1200 and 1650"
I see in another thread you were directed to this book, you would save yourself and others a lot of time if you consulted such a publication prior to coming here. It would answer a lot of your questions and give you a solid base for further research.
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Pieter B.
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| Posted: Sun 29 May, 2016 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Luka Borscak wrote: | | I'm not sure if goedendag was used earlier, but I don't think it's mentioned anywhere earlier than this Flemish burgers rising. Also, Flemish burgers don't seem to have won any other significant victories and by the 15th century, I don't think there is much evidence of goedendags still being used regularly in battles. So, it doesn't seem to be anything other that improvised short polearm, relatively cheap and effective enough for fighting cavalry already stopped by some obstacles. It is definitely not long enough to be deployed as an effective weapon for stopping a normal, uninterrupted heavy cavalry charge. |
They rose few times against the dukes of Burgundy, it's not something I really researched but it was mentioned in the books by Richard Vaughan a few times. The primary sources he cites only list pikes, longbows and occasionally crossbows being used by various cities rising up against the Burgundians. However it's probably not a stretch to imagine they would have used a bewildering array of bladed polearms too.
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Ronald M
Location: vancouver bc canada Joined: 06 Oct 2015
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Sun 29 May, 2016 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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I think thats just the french name
smiley face 123? no? lol yeah well im here cause i like...swords and weapons and stuff obv
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Kirk K.
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| Posted: Tue 31 May, 2016 12:46 am Post subject: |
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| Philip Melhop wrote: | | For better information on all of this , and some decent photos check out John Waldmans "Hafted Weapons in Medieval and Renaissance Europe: The Evolution of European Staff Weapons between1200 and 1650"I see in another thread you were directed to this book, you would save yourself and others a lot of time if you consulted such a publication prior to coming here. It would answer a lot of your questions and give you a solid base for further research. |
Send me $300 and I will order up a copy immediately! 😀
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Kirk K.
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| Posted: Tue 31 May, 2016 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| Luka Borscak wrote: | | I'm not sure if goedendag was used earlier, but I don't think it's mentioned anywhere earlier than this Flemish burgers rising. Also, Flemish burgers don't seem to have won any other significant victories and by the 15th century, I don't think there is much evidence of goedendags still being used regularly in battles. So, it doesn't seem to be anything other that improvised short polearm, relatively cheap and effective enough for fighting cavalry already stopped by some obstacles. It is definitely not long enough to be deployed as an effective weapon for stopping a normal, uninterrupted heavy cavalry charge. |
Perhaps. | Quote: | http://www.liebaart.org/goeden_e.htm
After the Battle of the Golden Spurs it was said that a Fleming with his goedendag would dare to fight against two knights on horse. Before this battle a knight was considered to be able to fight ten soldiers on foot. |
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Mario M.
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| Posted: Tue 31 May, 2016 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| Kirk K. wrote: | | After the Battle of the Golden Spurs it was said that a Fleming with his goedendag would dare to fight against two knights on horse. |
Yeah, and that went well;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cassel_(1328)
“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
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Jaroslav Kravcak
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| Posted: Mon 27 Jun, 2016 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Well I fully agree with the notion, that this weapon alone would play rather symbolic, than practical role in battles like Courtrai, but from looking at it, it looks really massive, one possible way to use it might have been to break limbs of horses in case a stray horseman somehow got too close and through pikes, while struggling to get out, or further, he might have generally been considerably slow and might have too little a space to maneuver. But in open order, it doesnt seem like the best idea.
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