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Jason Elrod
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 Posted: Mon 23 May, 2016 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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It is really unfortunately that Lance has decided not to send the sword to A&A to fix as I'm convinced that the blade was not produced by A&A. It just doesn't look like their work. The polish is wrong, the fuller is wrong, and the refinement all seem wrong to me.
I've owned 17 A&A standard pieces, at least 8 custom, and have handled at least 6 more and there is an "organic softness" (the only way to describe it) to the lines in A&A's works that are not present in that blade. The pommel and guard look like A&As work but the blade and the grip do not.
In fact as a former retailer for Angus Trim, my instant reaction was that this was an ATrim Blade. Gus has never used a welded tang but the sword still could be a modified one. Even one modified by A&A and If A&A did the welding, then they shouldn't have let the sword go out of their shop. No excuses for that.
I just figured that if the sword went to Craig, he'd be able to look at the piece and truly determine if it is A&As work. Custom swords can be tricky. I had an Erik Stevenson Rapier hilt mounted with an A&A blade. I would have called it a Phoenix Metal Creations Rapier but if the blade broke at a weld, I would have put the blame on A&A.
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Lukas MG
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 23 May, 2016 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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That's not an ATrim blade IMO. Totally wrong tang and the blade also looks different. From pics it looks like it could be A&A to me and Craig says it may be one of his, I'm inclined to believe him.
I think it's important not to jump to quick conclusions here. We have one sword with a faulty tang, both in design and execution. We also have a long track record of A&A pieces proving to be solid and without structural issues. I don't know what the story of this particular sword is but I would also suggest Lance send it in... if he doesn't want a replacement, that's fine and his right. But it may be good for Craig to see it, possibly confirm the sword's origin and further investigate what went wrong.
Custom sword maker:
http://www.lukasmaestlegoer.com
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Jason Elrod
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| Posted: Mon 23 May, 2016 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Lukas MG wrote: | | That's not an ATrim blade IMO. Totally wrong tang and the blade also looks different. From pics it looks like it could be A&A to me and Craig says it may be one of his, I'm inclined to believe him |
I agree that the tang is total wrong for an ATrim.
What I was trying to get across is that we shouldn't condemn an entire production line of swords based upon a custom sword of questionable provenance.
It is clear that this sword is defective and not up to Lance's nor A&As standards. The more interesting question is why? Was it a compilation sword? Did A&A just screw up? Is it second hand? Did the original owner ask A&A to put a hilt on a blade that already had the bad weld?
A&A has offered to replace a sword that they have no record of producing or selling and Lance has determined that A&A swords are not for him and that all swords with welded tangs are less durable than non welded ones.
Really there is nothing more to learn here unless we know more about the sword itself and its history which really isn't any of our business. For me it is just more curiosity than anything else.
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Mon 23 May, 2016 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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Once Criag came on and said he thinks its an A&A, its an A&A. He offered a fair remedy. Owner decided he didn't want to pursue things further. Sucks for the product but all seems fair enough. I'm glad to see both the problem and the response from the vendor. Welds can work. I'd trust Lutel welds all day and the next day too. Welds can also not work. I don't like the looks of this one at all.
Guess I'll just be a little more careful about what I ask for in the future.
No big deal.
All the rest is drama for the sake of drama - lord knows I've created enough of it over the years to know it when I read it.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Sam Barris
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| Posted: Mon 23 May, 2016 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Philip Dyer wrote: | | I would advise you to, to minimize the chances of breakage of any your sharps later on, to buy and use Nylon , rebated or even wooden swords on your pell and save your pricey sharps for cutting meat, fruit, water bottles, tatami mats, etc. |
I second this. I cringe at the thought of taking a fine sword to a "very thick dense wood pell" regardless of padding. That kind of exercise is what I use a waster for. Human beings are not trees, swords are not axes, etc. When I pick up a sword, I do not think, "Ah, here is a tool that is meant for hitting largely immovable objects with great force." But I suppose everyone's mileage varies. Perhaps I'm just paranoid with my own blades. But, as someone else pointed out, Mr. Morris seems to break a lot of swords.
I'm also still curious about whether he obtained the sword in question directly from A&A. Clearly the weld was bad, but many other things about that blade seem out of place based on my own experience with A&A's work. But the first of those pieces was obtained in 2010, which is after this sword's birthday. Maybe they made changes in the interim. Maybe it was a one-off thing. Like Nathan said, we have very little context.
Anyway, one good thing has come of this. I was reminded that I had lusted after that rapier on the muster page, and since it was still available, I went ahead and claimed it. Pictures to follow! 
Pax,
Sam Barris
"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." —Thucydides
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Nat Lamb
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| Posted: Mon 23 May, 2016 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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"Data" is not the plural of "anecdote" .
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Glen A Cleeton
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| Posted: Mon 23 May, 2016 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Anyway, one good thing has come of this. I was reminded that I had lusted after that rapier on the muster page, and since it was still available, I went ahead and claimed it. Pictures to follow! |
Curses, foiled again! 
Cheers
GC
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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Tue 24 May, 2016 8:04 am Post subject: Some clarification |
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Hello All
I wanted to clear up a few things for folks to reduce speculation. One thing for sure, it is our piece, the blade is ours. I did get a response from Lance via email. He got the sword about a year ago on the after market.
As to the specifics of how and when this sword was originally sold I do not have clear records. Its probably 8 to 10 years ago. We did a few pieces in this style. I am not sure how/why the tang had this type of weld on it. It is not how we do welds here.
This could be anything from something someone in the shop made for themselves then resold or it could have been done by an inexperienced person in the shop and we did not catch it. Not sure how, but if it had been noticed it would not have been done in this way. I supposed it could be an after sale repair of some sort but could not ascertain beyond the above with out sword in hand.
As to tangs in general there is no one way they are done in period or today. There are a wide variety of techniques one can use and one would not want to use the same style for all swords. Some in fact would not work on some style of swords. I can say with good confidence that in the modern market tangs are usually well done by major makers and in most cases are in fact quite a bit over engineered compared to there period inspirations. But we can open a new thread if we would like to delve into a discussion of period sword design.
Best
Craig
PS While Lance has stated he will not pursue a new blade for the sword or working on a fix, we are happy to continue that discussion if he wishes.
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Lance Morris
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| Posted: Wed 25 May, 2016 7:38 am Post subject: Hey Craig, |
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Hello everyone,
Craig: I don't mind mailing you the sword for you to examine. It was made in your shop.
I know in the past you concurred it was one of your swords pre this post and I'm glad you came out and said so here.
Thank you again for offering to fix it. I really enjoyed the Wieght and feel of this sword. A and A did excellent work on that
I'm a little bummed that I had a custom scabbard and belt made for this sword.
As I mentioned in my original post this is the fourth weapon I've had from arms and Armour that have failed. This is no isolated incident.
On a good note, I've found a blade to use with the furniture ill
Post pictures of the project.
I did notice something reading these posts:
When we choose a sword maker we love it's almost to a political level. I feel I've casually mentioned something negative about a presidential candidate at dinner and the whole family has erupted in arguments.
"You made that up". "You don't know the issues" lol
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Bram Verbeek
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| Posted: Wed 25 May, 2016 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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*Disclaimer: I do not have a AA blade, my best is a Tinker Hanwei one.
It is possible to make swords that keep going when you hit stout pieces non-moving wood with them.
It is also possible to make swords that conform to historical sizes and handling.
It is a very different task to do both, to be able to stand up to such (frankly) abuse and conform to historical handling and measurements. A company like AA seems to one of the first variety, I believe a company like Darksteel is better equipped for the second. I am not currently aware of one that can do so
Now, like everyone agrees, that is not a good weld in any case, but it can be taken back by the shop to be examined as per Craig's post.
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Mikko Kuusirati
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| Posted: Wed 25 May, 2016 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: Hey Craig, |
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| Lance Morris wrote: | | As I mentioned in my original post this is the fourth weapon I've had from arms and Armour that have failed. This is no isolated incident. |
Outside of your personal experience it is an extremely rare incident, though.
| Quote: | I did notice something reading these posts:
When we choose a sword maker we love it's almost to a political level. I feel I've casually mentioned something negative about a presidential candidate at dinner and the whole family has erupted in arguments.
"You made that up". "You don't know the issues" lol |
Honestly, I think most of us are just wary of making dramatic sweeping statements based on what seems to be a freak anomaly. A&A has a very good reputation built over thirty years in the business, and there are no companies in this industry big enough to generate good will by simply throwing money at the marketing department. (Cold Steel is almost there but even they can't quite pull it off; witness the recent trademark stupidity and the resulting backlash).
There are thousands of A&A weapons out there, and very few complaints about their durability. And I mean "few" as in after half an hour of searching I couldn't dig up even a single one - I'm sure that's just my failure and there are more or less the normal amount out there (I mean, there have to be some, no maker is that good) but if this was a problem actually inherent in the product line you'd expect to see it surface quite frequently with the sort of abuse people put their swords through, sometimes out of ignorance, sometimes to deliberately test them to their limits.
Now, to be fair, you personally seem quite level-headed about all this, especially considering the recurring frustration. But look at how some people have already gone off half-cocked, throwing around terms like "rat tail tang" without actually knowing what they mean and publicly swearing off an entire company because of one bad report. That sort of pointless drama tends to really annoy people like me, and we may respond less than perfectly politely, and then you get arguments like this.
What we have here is a broken blade with no context whatsoever. Who actually made it? How old is it? How many owners did it have before you? What did they do with it? What have you done with it? Did it come like that from the maker or was it modified and/or repaired at some point in its life? Maybe at several points? And so on. We just don't know - there's no sufficient basis for any sort of conclusion, here, let alone for categorically condemning any of the parties involved.
Maybe you've just had extreme bad luck with their products - statistically unlikely, but statistically unlikely things actually happen all the time. Maybe you're in the habit of abusing your weapons past reasonable limits - and customarily smacking a heavy, dense wooden object with live blades certainly sounds like abuse, but I for one don't know you and what you do well enough to say either way. And maybe A&A actually produce overpriced crap and all of us in the hobby apart from a brave few nonconformists are in on a huge conspiracy to keep praising them just to troll newbies or something - but as much as Hollywood would go for that one every time, I really don't think so. (But then, I'd say that, wouldn't I!  )
"And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."
— Terry Pratchett, Carpe Jugulum
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Arne G.
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| Posted: Wed 25 May, 2016 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: Hey Craig, |
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| Lance Morris wrote: | I did notice something reading these posts:
When we choose a sword maker we love it's almost to a political level. I feel I've casually mentioned something negative about a presidential candidate at dinner and the whole family has erupted in arguments.
"You made that up". "You don't know the issues" lol |
You did a bit more than mention something negative - you condemned all products from the company. Consider this statement from your first post in the thread:
| Lance Morris wrote: | | i've had a few arms and armour items over the last few years. Every one has broken or fallen apart. They have been pretty good about repairing or fixing the items but I feel their weapons aren't very well made. (emphasis added) |
Just saying.
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Lance Morris
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| Posted: Thu 26 May, 2016 2:15 pm Post subject: I stick by my comments |
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If I was abusing my swords I wouldn't ask to have them repaired nor would Craig go out of his way to fix them.
I've even send videos of how I use my weapons and the padded pell to Craig
Let me reiterate something.
I do not think from my experience, that the items I've seen from arms and armor are very well made empirically.
All four items have failed in one way or another. Two of those issues were welds.
Further more I've had several people write me privately on here and agree with me.
People whom we all know and respect on this forum.
dark swords swords are made for abuse. Arms and armors sword are made for use.
I'd highly recommend you all take them out and use them on padded items, tamashigiri and such. Use them. train with ithem and after a 1000 hits I'd be curious to see how yours holds up.
likely most collectors just leave them hanging on the wall or in a box
And you gentleman don't really know whether the swords you have are really well made for use.
Id like to drop the mic and walk away from this whole thread.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Thu 26 May, 2016 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: I stick by my comments |
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| Lance Morris wrote: | | I'd highly recommend you all take them out and use them on padded items, tamashigiri and such. Use them. train with ithem and after a 1000 hits I'd be curious to see how yours holds up. |
I've had A&A swords for 25 years. Many of them have seen a tremendous amount of cutting against all kinds of crap without an issue. I've never broken anything and I've been lucky not to even have anything come loose, nick, or bend. My very lucky results seem to be an outlier on the other side of the spectrum, however, as most people over that time could expect to have at least some sort of problem of one type or another.
I don't, however, bang them against padded wooden pells because, frankly, I do not believe that sharp swords intended to represent swords used in combat are in any way appropriate for such use. I find the whole thing completely ridiculous, frankly. I really don't know what activity that sort of thing is supposed to mimic or how it relates to the intended use of sharp swords.
As I've said, I've been fortunate. I'd stop well short of telling others that my experience would define the norm, give a full impression of the entire work product produced by A&A since the dawn of time, or give somebody the impression that others would have the same results that I have. I would simply provide an account of my experience, couch it in the proper context, and let others draw their own conclusions.
Having said that, the sword in question here was made wrong. Simply put, it shouldn't have left the shop. I'm glad nobody was injured.
| Quote: | likely most collectors just leave them hanging on the wall or in a box
And you gentleman don't really know whether the swords you have are really well made for use. |
I'd avoid clumping everyone into groups and making such broad and biased statements. There are a lot of different types on this site who do a lot of different things with their swords. Hell, we even have a few yahoos repeatedly hitting their sharp swords against hard objects. Mileage varies.
| Quote: | | Id like to drop the mic and walk away from this whole thread. |
Bye.
.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Thu 26 May, 2016 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: Hey Craig, |
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Drama for the sake of drama.
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Richard Miller
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| Posted: Thu 26 May, 2016 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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In truth, I may have a bit of a prejudicial respect for A&A swords based upon my own, very positive experience with them. That being said, I cannot believe how anyone would consider 1,000 "hits" on a hardwood pell (albeit padded) with a rapier to be anything but abuse.
Are you freaking joking? Of course we would all like indestructible products, but I don't see anything here that would constitute anything but a totally atypical customer receiving one (and only ONE) sword that has evidence of a questionable weld in the tang. To my mind this is a tempest in a teapot and some sour grapes. (OK.... I mixed some metaphors)
I have learned one thing from this thread, and it is that A&A is one very "stand-up" manufacturer, and I'm quite happy to continue using their products.
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Jonathan Blair
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| Posted: Tue 14 Jun, 2016 9:56 am Post subject: |
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Considering how classy Craig has been in dealing with this issue, I've decided to order one of A&A's daggers: the Morgan Bible Dagger. It'll be my first A&A item. I'm planning a few variations, a peened pommel and skivved/glued grip, so I'll have to wait on the piece. I'm sure I'll be extremely pleased with the end result.
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - The Lord Jesus Christ, from The Gospel According to Saint Matthew, chapter x, verse 34, Authorized Version of 1611
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