[Glen A Cleeton]

Seems like modified and broken swords are kind of part of Lance's life.
http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=32000

Lance I'm curious if the sword of this thread is the sword you listed in the classifieds here.
http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=32424

Lance, are you better able to list the daggers that broke and the poleaxe? Or are all those bits gone?

I have had/seen a couple of general production line swords from A&A apart. One, a semi custom Edward III blade on Duke of Urbino fittings. The second, my old Black Prince. Both were of the threaded peen block routine. The BP would not tighten enough because the keyed nature of the pommel was bottoming/wedging on the tang. Anyway, both were full tangs. Both tangs were a bit raggedy looking, as not terribly smooth. The EIII combo has been furthered altered over the years. The GBS I own was bought secondhand from someone not happy with it. That remains unmoving after 14 years and having been pounded about quite a bit. Both the BP and EIII now have newly peened homes but there was nothing really horrid in the way they were first put together.


I can also appreciate some of Dean's thoughts regarding construction and perhaps an added page to the A&A site with some of the production routines might prove both entertaining and allay some fears or suspicions.


FWIW, my BP with bronze fittings had some issues from the get go. A Friday special, the grip was off center, the pommel bottoming on the tang and the cross slot ragged and seriously oversize. I attributed the faults to character for a long time before, well, just fixing them


I think we could expect in this day and age of more elevated pricing, QC should be well attended.

For all the times I have hemmed and hawed at buying another A&A product, I might as well just buy the Muster rapier. My cc company would love that .

Cheers

GC

[Phillip Martin]

[Jeroen T]

[Mikko Kuusirati]

[Glen A Cleeton]

An example of the nut. The only real issue is if the original fit is too slack and the owner can't tighten it a quarter turn. In doing so, though, one ends up with a lip to the peen. Perfectly done on the bench, the nut will seat the keyed pommel just as everything else is tight. The Edbino III got grip lengthened and peened.



Also a new peen block for the blue bronze Black Prince The grip core was usable.

Cheers

GC

[Gregory J. Liebau]

[Craig Johnson]

Hello All

First off I am happy to answer any and all questions about our process and products, but as to not derail this thread about this particular sword, please send me a note or we can start a new general thread.

As to the specific sword in this situation I think it was made about 8 years ago but have been unable to find a sale record for it so it may have been a purchase at an event or special order of some sort. Usually we would only do a symmetrical hilt in this form on this blade for a specific case as it’s a bit unusual compared to the historical population. We have done a few some with longer hilts than these but not often.

As I stated earlier, that weld is crap. It would not have left the shop if I had noticed it. We strive to check everything but obviously no one is perfect. It is completely atypical for a weld like this, so not sure if this may have been a project sword one of the guys did that was outside the normal flow of things (usually standards are higher on this group of things but again here we have an obvious aberration) or what the circumstances where in this specific case.

We strive to be better at what we do every day and when something like this occurs we do all in our power to remedy the situation. We also use it to access our procedures and practices anew as any good craftsperson would.

Again if Landon would like to get a hold of me we will do all we can to help him with a satisfactory resolution to this problem.

Best
Craig

[Jason Elrod]

I do hope that the blade goes back to A&A to look at.

I know that Craig has said that the sword is one of theirs but the blade is odd for an A&A piece. I can't think of any A&As that I've seen that have such a symmetrical fuller and Nathan already mentioned the incised lines.

If I was to guess, I would say that the blade isn't A&A manufactured and that they might have just done up the pommel and guard.

Of course this is pure speculation on my part. Craig would be able to verify things much better if the sword were in hand.

Regardless Craig is right that the problem is a poor weld job.

[Nathan Robinson]

[Chad Arnow]

I think we need to be wary of sweeping statements and/or guilt by association. I've seen it in the sword community for years.

Examples:

-Because some threaded tangs are bad, all threaded tangs must be bad.
-Because some welded tangs are bad, all must be bad.
-Because some overly flexible blades are bad (the dreaded "whippy!") all flexible blades are bad. (I believe the issue with "whippy" Windlass blades comes from the converse sweeping statement: because flexibility in some blades is good, all blades should be very flexible)
-Because some scabbards have integral belts a la the 13th century, all should.
-Because some scabbards were fleece lined, they all should be
-Because some bad repros use brass in their hilts, brass is inappropriate for all
-etc., etc.

None of the above are true, but I've seen similar statements and design philosophies.

My car is held together with welds. I trust it with my life everyday. If a weld on my car failed, I (or my heirs ) wouldn't condemn the entire technique or the maker's whole product line. An exception, of course, would be if there was a pattern of unfixed issues resulting in multiple failures. (Think Takata airbags)

I think we can agree this sword is a problem. But A&A has likely welded other tangs and the vast majority have held. Del Tin welds round stock extensions onto some of their tangs. Most don't fail, though a few have. BTW, the tang in question is not a rat tail. This is a rat tail.



If people don't like welds, ask for solid tangs or shop elsewhere. A&A has a ton of products out in the wide world with few reports of failures. But dogs happen. Let's just be careful about condemning whole product lines.

[Robert Morgan]

Just a question... in the photos of the broken tang, that scarph join is certainly odd and nonstandard. Is it possible that the OP got the sword secondhand, and that perhaps that scarph join represents a prior repair that failed in the same spot? I'd certainly be curious.

There's also nothing wrong with threaded tangs. As others have pointed out, as long as the weld is done right, no worries. My Valiant I-Beam trainer takes abuse and keeps on going, for example.

Personally, even if this is an A&A weapon, I wouldn't disregard the whole line. They have a reputation for crafting quality items. Every production bloc has its share of duds (don't get me started on my old Ford!). It sounds like A&A has offered to make things right even not knowing 100% for sure that the blade was of their manufacture; you can't ask for more from a manufacturer.

Bob

[J.D. Crawford]

Maybe this sword was not up to the usual A&A standard, but how many manufacturers/retailers would offer warranty repairs on an 8 year old product, with no record of sale, that may or may not have been modified and/or abused by the current or previous owners?

[Jordan E. Williams]

I know it's been voiced in this thread before (not by me though) but I'm sort of suspicious about every A&A product he's owned has broken, I'd really like to hear (or see in this case) Lance say what he's been doing with them.

[Lance Morris]

So much to respond to.

I use a very thick dense wood pell... Wrapped with a foot or more of very nice spongy padding.wrapped in duct tape. Highly recommended.
I've shown Craig the videos and images. I'm not abusing the blades but I am certainly hitting hard with them.

If there is structural damage or a stress fracture in a blade (Like a welded area not done well) to begin with then be it the tenth or hundredth time it'll eventually break. Sword are not magical

Craig is awesome and he reached out to me to try and help fix the sword. At the point in time although it was a lovely offer and great customer service I'm going to decline. I think moving away from A & A products is a better choice for me.

Having a welded tang may be a preference. I would always prefer not to have one. In the future I'll ask a manufacturer about it before purchasing the item. Or hopefully it'll be explained on their site as to why they do it. (Not a knock on A&A, they don't say they traditionally make their blades)
I know Albion, tinker, Del tin and Angus trim don't weld theirs. And as such I've not had an issue like this with them.

As for posting on the forum rather then reach out to Craig directly is my choice thank you very much.
It wasn't being passive aggressive. I felt like I have bothered Craig so much about these issues in the last year I would imagine he is sick of hearing from me.
Fortunately there's been an eye opening due to this thread, about this sword and many like it in regards to welded tangs. We now can make a better educated decision on where to by our blades based on what we want.

If a good weld is as good as a non welded blade then I've yet to see it.
So far any and all experiences I've had with welded tangs have always failed. (Rapier fighting in the SCA, steel comabt etc)


Anywho,

Thanks again Craig!! You are good guy to help.

[Chad Arnow]

[Dean F. Marino]

While I hate to say so.... it appears Lance is getting hit for publishing a photo.... DATA.

Sorry guys - when I see counter DATA - I will consider this line.

SHOW ME THE TANGS. Not saying they are good, not saying they are bad.

And thank you Lance.... you could have published NOTHING, and just walked away. You didn't do that.

[Nathan Robinson]

[Philip Dyer]

I would advise you to, to minimize the chances of breakage of any your sharps later on, to buy and use Nylon , rebated or even wooden swords on your pell and save your pricey sharps for cutting meat, fruit, water bottles, tatami mats, etc.

[Victor R.]

[Scott S.]