What is the meaning of these heraldic details? -- myArmoury.com

Pedro Paulo Gaião

I usually see these "flags" in shields and clothes that bring the heraldry of princes and kings of England, and the kings of France; but I did not get to see it outside of these two. What does it mean? Why it was not used by knights and noblemen outside the royal family?

Extra question: This arms on black prince's helm are the arms of the Duchy of Brittany?

Lin Robinson · Posted: Tue 01 Mar, 2016 1:13 pm Post subject:

These arms are the property of the Royal Family and as such are only worn or used by them. For example, if you are an English nobleman and have a castle as well as arms, you fly your banner over the castle, containing representation of your arms, not that of the Royal Family, even though you are a vassal of the Royal Family. Consider the arms as being sort of a brand or trademark. If you own a company, then you trademark your symbols, name, etc. and if someone else should use them without your permission you could sue them. During the times these arms were developed, using them unlawfully could cost you your head!

As far as the Black Prince goes, the arms express a view by the English Royal Family that they were the lawful rulers of much of France, which was a situation which led to a lot of warfare between England and France, as you probably know. The use of the fleur de lis in the arms of the English Royal Family is intended to support their claims to large parts of France. The wreath is ermine, which is also displayed on the shield of the arms of Brittany. However, I do not know if that is intended to show any connection with Brittany as ermine was used in a lot of arms The crest, of course is his - the lion and the crown. He never became king, dying at 45 while his father still lived.

Mark Griffin · Posted: Tue 01 Mar, 2016 1:46 pm Post subject:

Lin is right re the Ermine, it is simply the heraldic representation of that fur and nothing to do with Brittany in this instance.

Mart Shearer · Posted: Tue 01 Mar, 2016 3:02 pm Post subject:

Perhaps he is referring to the white label, a mark of difference used to distinguish the first son and heir.

David Cooper · Posted: Tue 01 Mar, 2016 3:05 pm Post subject:

Are you referring to the white three pronged charge at the top of the Arms? If so this is referred to as a Label and in this context denotes the Arms of the heir to the throne and differentiates them from the monarch's.

R. Charboneau · Posted: Tue 01 Mar, 2016 4:43 pm Post subject:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/41617/41617-h/41617-h.htm

Marks of cadency pg. 477

Fig. 699

Starting left to right Firstborn son, second, so on and so forth. Had to be legitimate children though:)

Pedro Paulo Gaião · Posted: Wed 02 Mar, 2016 4:20 pm Post subject:

David Cooper · Posted: Thu 03 Mar, 2016 12:19 am Post subject:

I believe Scotish Cadency marks were slightly different., I found this online whih may be of help.

By Tomasz Steifer z Szadółek - Sir Thomas Innes of Learney Scots Heraldry, CC BY 2.5, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=15036681

Lin Robinson · Posted: Sat 05 Mar, 2016 5:00 am Post subject:

Pedro Paulo Gaião · Posted: Sat 05 Mar, 2016 10:06 am Post subject:

Pedro Paulo Gaião · Posted: Sun 17 May, 2020 6:38 pm Post subject:

I'm renewing the topic because I saw John Duke of Bedford's arms and it doesn't follow the patterns I expected:

John was the fourth son of Henry de Bolingbroke, so theoretically he shouldn't have the right to use a label. I also find interesting how the left side shows the ermine from his Earl of Richmond.