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Niels Just Rasmussen




Location: Nykøbing Falster, Denmark
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PostPosted: Sat 23 Apr, 2016 6:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote:
Niels Just Rasmussen wrote:
The men around Hrolf Krake are VERY unusual in that they fight to the death for their leader AFTER he is slain on the battlefield (as Bøddvar Bjarke and Hjalte do). The reason is that Hrolf Krake was the perfect leader and to abandon him you would always have to settle for second-best. More normally a battle would end immediately with the leader's death. Nothing more to fight over and you could begin re-negotations with the "comitatus" survivors - especially those who had fought heroically you would want into your comitatus, thus boosting your fighting strength when confronting the next challenge.
So the Swedish King naturally think he can negotiate and get the last survivor of Hrolf Krake's men (Vøgg) to be one of his men. Vøgg then kills the Swedish King during the oath taking ritual (again highly unusual), with the important statement that no one could replace Hrolf Krake.


All that you showed me appear to be the result of literary fiction. Is this the case or it really happened?

Niels Just Rasmussen wrote:
As warriors they own only the clothes they stand in and the weapons and armour they wear (they were always with their King and he provided everything for them as gifts). The leader could after conquest of a territory (or be declared King at the "Ting") reward his men with land, which would increase their status - perhaps to "Herremænd" if the land-gift was big enough. The King would then have a loyal group of lesser nobility to run the local territory where they were placed.
Few leaders would achieve a position where they could give land to their men and so those men who managed to get a retirement of Land are mentioned on Rune-stones (it was a something of note).


So we could assume that a land nobleman would usually be richer than a warband warrior? (Maybe it was too obvious, but just noticed it now)

Niels Just Rasmussen wrote:
What we mean by "slaves" in a modern sense (having no rights) are probably "prisoners of war", that at least in the Iron Age were sacrificed, so you didn't have any living slaves running around for long [the original roman gladiator games was the same - where prisoners of war were killed].


Really? Because I had read a NatGeo's text that explored a very cruel side of what could be called "slavery" in the Viking Age:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/12/15...chaeology/

Quote:
In Scandinavia the Jarls was the highest social group and Kings were elected at Ting-places among these families that often traced their families back to aesir, vanir or jötnar (giants). The Scandinavian monarchy was an election monarchy (in Denmark election monarchy first ended in 1660). Jarls, Herremænd and Free-men could vote, but of course it was a vote by showing martial strength. The winner was the loudest banging of shield among the people present of the Ting (= greatest number of supporting soldiers present). As Denmark has 4 different Lands-Ting you could in theory have 4 different King elected in Denmark forcing them to share (or actually as everyone could guess fight for being last man standing).


I do not know if I trully understand what you said: there would be a great battle between voters of opposite parties and whoever won would elect their candidate? It seems a great blood bath for a royal election.


Quote:
So Jarls are Dukes in Scandinavia; but the (Danish, Anglish and Saxon) Earls in England are probably "degraded" by the Normans to Count status, so to have the Dux titles in Norman hands).


It is an observation that makes sense. But if Jarls were the dukes, there would be something like a Count, like the german "graf"? Or title only came to be imported from around 1300, as you mentioned?

By the way, as you seem to dominate the military history of Scandinavia more than the others, you may be able to do much in this discussion, since scandinavia has a very important role in the use and popularization of this type of armor:
http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=33438&highlight=
-------

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
The part of the "poorer levy" that was likely to get called up to war at all probably had roughly the same standard of equipment as the poorest thanes, so nothing less than spear, shield, and helmet. Anyone who couldn't afford that basic equipment simply wasn't regarded as an effective warrior and was rarely (if ever) called up.


But the Anglo-Saxons (and probably the Nordic too), didn't had archers between their armies? I suspect that they would be the poorest, armed with a bow, a bunch of arrows and a knife. Warriors like these don't need shield and helmet, as they would do mostly skirmishing.

Quote:
If you don't have time time (or patience) to trawl through the primary sources yourself, Regia Anglorum has a much better-written and historically accountable overview than most other sources available on the Web:

http://regia.org/research/warfare/saxons2.htm
http://regia.org/research/warfare/fyrd1.htm
http://regia.org/research/warfare/fyrd2.htm


Thank you, will help me a lot


The story of Hrolf Krake is a legend about a perfect King and perfect heroes that fight to the death for their perfect King.
As such it is an ideal (like later stories of perfect knights) - the reality is probably that most often retainers only fought until their leader was dead. Then there was nothing more to fight for as neither side fought for anything more than their leader's quest for fame. They were personally bound to him (not his family, not his people or his lands).

National geographic and its "slavery" is not based on any reality we know of: People have generally a totally flawed view on viking society.

Legal text are seemingly clear about thralls in Scandinavia and they are servants and have rights (their own money).
People might object that everyone could kill a thrall - but everyone could kill everyone in viking society. It was legal to conduct a blood feud against the King if you wanted, until feuding families settled it with blood-money.
The difference is just that killing a Thrall will not start a blood feud (but usually a payment of compensation), whereas killing a Free Man will.

The is a clear difference legally between "killing" and "murder" in Scandinavian society.
Killing is manly - something generally positive, but for being qualified as a killing, it has to be done so people know who did the deed. For instance you have to leave your weapon in the body of the guy you killed if you sneaked into his house at night time or hacked him down on a road with no witnesses. Really manly men stood over the corpse and waited for witnesses to arrive, so they could declare their heroic action and tell them them who he is and who the dead man was (then you don't have to leave your weapon behind). As the Havamal say when you leave your house, you never leave your weapons out of arms reach unless by custom, when you enter another mans home where the rule of guest-friendship is sacred.
An attempt on your life can come at any time, anywhere - sleeping is dangerous.

Killing is acceptable, since if everyone knows who did it then the offended family can retain its honour by having blood revenge. If you can't conduct vengeance (because of murder) you are an "unmanly man" (argr/ragr) like something conducting passive homosexuality or doing female magic (seidr). So until the murderer can be found it leaves the offended family dishonoured.

The blood revenge was a matter between two families, but if it escalated a third party could take the matter to the "Ting" so a settlement could be established by force there. Either one party could be forced to pay blood-money or with one family's member getting exiled, which all depended at the voting. The law was "democratic" - each case depended on the voting of the free men assembled. The law is political. So having a lot of (powerful) friends mattered in all law cases. Jarls would off course expect that the Free-Men living in his territory would vote as him (that is making noise by banging their shields).
So going against a Jarl would be nearly hopeless for "lesser"" men; but Jarls had enough power to make blood revenge against Kings in the Viking Age and early middle ages.

On the contrary "murder" was something done in secret, where you didn't know who committed the deed.
That would prevent the offended family from taking revenge and so unable to uphold their honour. This was regarded as the lowest of the low of all acts - it made you into an animal. A person discovered for murder would either be branded a Nidding (a socially non-human everyone could kill) and permanently exiled or in rare cases even executed.
So Thralls have rights (they are humans, but socially humans without kin), Niddings have no right as they are no longer regarded as being human. Given help or shelter to a Nidding would make you a Nidding as well.
So Thralls are not the lowest people on the social ladder - Niddings are (and they have NO rights, so they would be more like what people see as slaves today as people without any legal rights - except Niddings are exiled from society).
Killing Niddings causes no blood-money or blood revenge (dead thralls will result in compensation to the owner).

So being a Free Man was dangerous, so many people actually would voluntarily become Thralls as you were under some kind of protection - the Free-Man you worked under. As a Free Man only you and your family protected you.
If you ended up under a psychopath it was off course very unfortunate, but most sensible people took care of their thralls and animals, since their income and subsistence depended on it.
People that treated their children, wife, thralls and animals badly would become social pariahs in society and if a blood-feud started they could be very sure to lose verdicts if the matter was taken to the Ting.
It was acceptable to kill newborn children if your life depended on it (during drought, starvation) and also old people that could no longer contribute to work on the farm. So during a food crisis you could kill your old senile family members, but it was regarded as something only done as an extreme measure.
A person first became socially a human when the father had put it on his knee and poured water/beer/mead (depending on status) over its head and giving it a name. After being named the baby was now officially a human and part of the family and couldn't be killed.

In Denmark it was apparently legal to be conducting blood revenge against the King until quite far into the middle age, but then finally a King decided it was treason.
I finally found the source (in Danish) - it is first from 1360 AD (under King Valdemar IV Atterdag).
Before this law was enacted you actually could make a lawful rebellion against the King if you thought him "unfair/unlawful" OR conducting a blood-feud against the King and his family/household; but from now on would be regarded as high treason with life and all wealth forfeit.
Source: http://danmarkshistorien.dk/leksikon-og-kilde...bf053798c6

No wonder Denmark had a lot of unrest in the Viking Age and Middle Ages Laughing Out Loud

Furthermore blood-revenges are NOT personal, but a family feud (though off course it could be personal and emotional, but that was secondary).

If Hans Larsen kills Morten Pedersen in Denmark, then his brother Torben Pedersen can kill Hans Larsen's second cousin Jens on Iceland. Everyone within the two families were fair game in a blood-feud - (but if you kill a wife, she is actually member of a third family and her father, brothers and cousins will then avenge her).
Torben and Jens might have been friends for decades, but as soon Torben hears about the blood-feud his honour dictates that he must do the deed. Then he can sob and cry (in secret) for his dear friend afterwards. Blood-feuds is DUTY to uphold HONOUR, nothing to do with personal feelings.
A feud can happen so the male members of a wife's family fight against her husband's family. A real viking women (this is probably only truly tough high status women) would then ideally kill her own male children (as they are part of her husbands family) to take revenge as honour dictates.
From reading the Icelandic sagas we learn that men are often quick to friendship and often quite docile seeking settlement to fast. It is up to the women to insult the men for being lazy cowards to drive the vengeance on and make sure honour is upheld.

Honour is everything and the higher up in society the more aggressive you have to be to defend that honour. Any insult and any rumour (whether you know its true or false) have to be met decisively as you by inaction prove the accusation or rumour true! Jarls and Kings are bursting with honour that they have to guard constantly to not lose face and bring shame over the family name (a family that often claims to be descended from supernatural beings).
If you don't have the stomach for that, be a thrall as then you socially/legally don't have honour or family and thus legally can't take vengeance.

Warband warriors would have lavish gifts from his leader that would be a substantial monetary value (but selling these items would likely be very dishonorable and offensive to the giver); but the "plan" was likely ideally to receive land when you have helped your leader to get territorial gains (conquest or election at a Ting).
A landed Herremand would own lots of land and be much richer as he has income from his vast land-holdings.

At the Ting you had a sacred peace (the place was ritually demarcated), so during the Ting meet it was illegal to attack another with your weapons and if you did you would became a Nidding. But you could insult a person and thus cause a ritual duel to be conducted at the Ting. You had apparently "professional duelists" on Iceland at least, that went to Ting meetings just to provoke duels as if a person insulted didn't call for duel he would be dishonoured and marked as an unmanly man! Yeah being a Free Man is dangerous, if people smells weakness you are toast. Every time you go to Ting, you could be unlucky having a professional duelist insulting you, so you better have a reputation of being an excellent fighter. These guys could be hired by one farmer to take another out at the Ting (sneaky!).

Off course after the Ting meeting had ended the power game could start if one leader and his backers didn't accept the Ting's verdict. Then the leader had to prove he was the strongest and best man after all, so they could maybe get backing at another Ting's meeting (yet only if you succeeded in killing the former winner).

Archers in Scandinavian armies are still a bit clouded in mystery. Did they have real "archer units", or did you have individual archers moving around the battlefield as they saw fit themselves? I still think the second version as harassers, skirmishers would be the most common.

All noblemen hunted, so they were all proficient with bows. Also apparently every Scandinavian King, Jarl or Herremand with respect for himself (at least in Norway) would have a Sami huntsmen/archer as one of his retainers. He would almost always just be call "Finn" (meaning Sami).

So the legend of the naval Battle of Svolder in 999/1000 AD the Norwegian King Olaf Tryggvason was facing a combined force of Danes under King Canute the Great, Swedes under King Olof Skötkonung and the people from Trøndelag under the Jarl of Lade, Eric Haakonsson.

The Norwegian King had a nobleman in his close retinue on his flagship named Einar Thambarskelfir, who was famous for shooting a very high-powered longbow.
But during the battle the Jarl of Lade' men storms the Norwegian flagship, but bowshot after bowshot takes out the attackers.
His bow was finally taken out by the one of the Jarl of Lade's men called Finn who made a spectacular precision shot (probably a Sami expert archer).
Famously the Norwegian King asked what that sound was, when the bowstring of Thambarskelfir's heavy bow burst and the reply was "it was the sound of your Kingdom breaking".
OK this is legend, but it shows both Noble archers in the Kings retinue on the flagship and an expert individual Sami archer in the retinue of the Jarl of Lade. So archers can't be seen as poor warriors. Archers could be of any standing.

We have a rune stone from Århus, Denmark that probably is erected as a result of this battle:
"Gunnulfr and Eygautr/Auðgautr and Áslakr and Hrólfr raised this stone in memory of Fúl, their partner, who died when kings fought". Enough said!
So 4 warband/huscarls (?) members raised a runestone to remember one of their own as he died "when Kings fought" and that is a manly way to leave this world.

About the title Graf (Danish: Greve) is seems to be a medieval loan from Germany and something that is created later as Denmark become more "European" (= German) during the middle ages.
Jarls are clearly translated as Dux all over Scandinavia and it seems "Herremand" gets translated to "Ridder" around 1300 AD in Denmark (some instances to "Squire" as well, so perhaps that is lesser Herremænd? OR boys owning a Herregård since their father died, but not old enough for warfare - it is still unclear to me).

So the Anglo-Saxons would have Earls of the highest status (as they originally came from Denmark/North Germany).
So since Earls are degraded to something like Count (Latin: Comes) it's probably a particular Norman "invention", so to insert Norman's as Dux's around the country and thus degrade the local nobility to a lower standing.
No wonder some Earls in the North tried to rebel after 1066 and convince the Danish King (Svend II Estridsen) to invade and restore their rightful standing; but the Normans cut down the rebellion with incredible brutality, before the Danish King was ready (or willing, since he was paid off) to land and the Danish attack never happened.
The Harrying of the North:
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrying_of_the_North

Apparently the Normans killed 75% of the entire population in the Yorkshire and North Riding areas to effectively prevent further uprisings. [So actually Danes from France killing Danes settled in England and Angles also originally from Denmark/North Germany].
"Frænde er frænde værst" as we say in Danish ("Kinsman is Kinsman worst" is the literal translation).
So Anglo-Saxon-Danish nobles in England became second-rate noble to the Normans.


Last edited by Niels Just Rasmussen on Sat 23 Apr, 2016 9:11 am; edited 4 times in total
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Sat 23 Apr, 2016 6:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote:
Niels Just Rasmussen wrote:
In Scandinavia the Jarls was the highest social group and Kings were elected at Ting-places among these families that often traced their families back to aesir, vanir or jötnar (giants). The Scandinavian monarchy was an election monarchy (in Denmark election monarchy first ended in 1660). Jarls, Herremænd and Free-men could vote, but of course it was a vote by showing martial strength. The winner was the loudest banging of shield among the people present of the Ting (= greatest number of supporting soldiers present). As Denmark has 4 different Lands-Ting you could in theory have 4 different King elected in Denmark forcing them to share (or actually as everyone could guess fight for being last man standing).


I do not know if I trully understand what you said: there would be a great battle between voters of opposite parties and whoever won would elect their candidate? It seems a great blood bath for a royal election.


No, each warrior just banged a spear or sword against his own shield.


Quote:
Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
The part of the "poorer levy" that was likely to get called up to war at all probably had roughly the same standard of equipment as the poorest thanes, so nothing less than spear, shield, and helmet. Anyone who couldn't afford that basic equipment simply wasn't regarded as an effective warrior and was rarely (if ever) called up.


But the Anglo-Saxons (and probably the Nordic too), didn't had archers between their armies? I suspect that they would be the poorest, armed with a bow, a bunch of arrows and a knife. Warriors like these don't need shield and helmet, as they would do mostly skirmishing.


Scandinavians -- Swedes and Norwegians and particular -- used archery both in hunting and in war. Icelandic sagas are nothing if not full of people shooting each other. Arrowheads are also extremely common finds in Scandinavian settlements both at home and abroad. Archery was clearly not restricted to "poorer" warriors, let alone the "poorest" ones -- the archers who got mentioned in the sagas tended to be kings and warlords or at least their foremost elite warriors.

Archery in Anglo-Saxon England is a more difficult subject. We don't have that much in the way of archaeological evidence, and the "Battle of Maldon" poem from the end of the 10th century said that there was a great deal of archery going on but didn't say who were the ones shooting (the Vikings, the locals, or both). But, to be fair, we don't have much evidence for archery in 11th-century northern France either, but we know that William had a large number of archers in his invasion force! Given that the Normans and the late Anglo-Saxon English had fairly close contacts with each other in the last few decades before Hastings and that both of them were heavily influenced by Scandinavian immigrants, it's far from impossible that the late Anglo-Saxons made much use of archery too. As for why their archers didn't seem to have played a significant role (and might not even have been present) at Hastings, we don't know for sure. Maybe Harold's army didn't have many archers to begin with. Maybe most or all of the archers were among the forces that were disbanded after Stamford Bridge. Or maybe Harold had significant numbers of archers but didn't employ them as effectively as the Normans did. We just don't know.

It's worth noting that the archers shown by the Bayeux Tapestry weren't necessarily the "poorest" sort of warriors either. Many were unarmoured, but here and there are several archer figures with similar hauberks to what the Norman horsemen wore. And clearly, given that the Normans were able to mass the power of their archery against the Anglo-Saxon line (as opposed to dispersing their archers to act in an independent skirmishing role), these archers must have had a fair measure of training and discipline because otherwise they wouldn't have been able to shoot together like that. Given this comparison with the Norman archers, I don't think English archers would have been the "poorest" sort of warriors in their army. The poorest that actually got called up in times of war, maybe, but they'd still be part of the richer minority, a long way up the social and economic ladder from the really poor people.
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Niels Just Rasmussen




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PostPosted: Sun 24 Apr, 2016 4:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:

Scandinavians -- Swedes and Norwegians and particular -- used archery both in hunting and in war. Icelandic sagas are nothing if not full of people shooting each other. Arrowheads are also extremely common finds in Scandinavian settlements both at home and abroad. Archery was clearly not restricted to "poorer" warriors, let alone the "poorest" ones -- the archers who got mentioned in the sagas tended to be kings and warlords or at least their foremost elite warriors.

Archery in Anglo-Saxon England is a more difficult subject. We don't have that much in the way of archaeological evidence, and the "Battle of Maldon" poem from the end of the 10th century said that there was a great deal of archery going on but didn't say who were the ones shooting (the Vikings, the locals, or both). But, to be fair, we don't have much evidence for archery in 11th-century northern France either, but we know that William had a large number of archers in his invasion force! Given that the Normans and the late Anglo-Saxon English had fairly close contacts with each other in the last few decades before Hastings and that both of them were heavily influenced by Scandinavian immigrants, it's far from impossible that the late Anglo-Saxons made much use of archery too. As for why their archers didn't seem to have played a significant role (and might not even have been present) at Hastings, we don't know for sure. Maybe Harold's army didn't have many archers to begin with. Maybe most or all of the archers were among the forces that were disbanded after Stamford Bridge. Or maybe Harold had significant numbers of archers but didn't employ them as effectively as the Normans did. We just don't know.

It's worth noting that the archers shown by the Bayeux Tapestry weren't necessarily the "poorest" sort of warriors either. Many were unarmoured, but here and there are several archer figures with similar hauberks to what the Norman horsemen wore. And clearly, given that the Normans were able to mass the power of their archery against the Anglo-Saxon line (as opposed to dispersing their archers to act in an independent skirmishing role), these archers must have had a fair measure of training and discipline because otherwise they wouldn't have been able to shoot together like that. Given this comparison with the Norman archers, I don't think English archers would have been the "poorest" sort of warriors in their army. The poorest that actually got called up in times of war, maybe, but they'd still be part of the richer minority, a long way up the social and economic ladder from the really poor people.


In this period Denmark still had some wild inland forest areas (most people lived on the coast or beside inland lakes and streams), so Danish nobles and many normal farmers would go hunting as well and be proficient with bows.
The great land expansion with felling of the inland forests for more agricultural land seems to really get going from ~1100 AD.

It seems like the Anglo-Saxon at Hastings fought generally like Scandinavians with more dispersed independent archers on the battlefield (skirmishing/harassing) from all social standings.
The really interesting question is whether the Normans called their archers together "on the fly" in desperation to break through before nightfall OR the Normans actually have trained archers to work as massed units.
If the second case is true, then the Normans have actually invented something new in Western Europe.

The problem is the transition. If archers is from all social classes its perhaps not really possible to have them working as collective units under a commander, since some of the archers could be higher status than the commander [who are you to tell me where to aim and shoot?]
So did the Normans create units of peasant class archers lead by a nobleman? Probably impossible to answer with the lack of sources.

As for lack of Anglo-Saxon archers at Hastings. If you have taken up a defensive position then you can't use both a shield and also use a bow. So most men probably knew that victory depended on holding the defensive position until nightfall at all costs (which would likely force the Normans to retreat). Had Harold not been killed, they would most likely have won the battle (holding the position likely forcing a Norman retreat). .
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Ralph Grinly





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PostPosted: Mon 25 Apr, 2016 4:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm wondering whether archers should really be considered "peasants",( as we today consider peasants..one step above slaves) ? What many forget is that to be an effective archer takes *lots* of practice, and that means having plenty of free time to have that practice. True peasants are not very likely to have that free time..if called to war, they are most likely to be armed with spears or some form of club. So, I'd consider those fighters who came as archers , while not maybe of the middle or upper classes, certainly weren't simple peasants. Maybe the "blue-collar workers" of their day ?
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PostPosted: Mon 25 Apr, 2016 4:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ignore please..accidental duplicate post Sad
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Niels Just Rasmussen




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PostPosted: Mon 25 Apr, 2016 8:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ralph Grinly wrote:
I'm wondering whether archers should really be considered "peasants",( as we today consider peasants..one step above slaves) ? What many forget is that to be an effective archer takes *lots* of practice, and that means having plenty of free time to have that practice. True peasants are not very likely to have that free time..if called to war, they are most likely to be armed with spears or some form of club. So, I'd consider those fighters who came as archers , while not maybe of the middle or upper classes, certainly weren't simple peasants. Maybe the "blue-collar workers" of their day ?


In Scandinavia peasants would mean Free men (who could vote at the Ting and fought when the King called for a campaign) while servants are thralls (who could not vote at the Ting and did not campaign with the King).

Depend what you mean with practice? If you use bow and arrow for hunting they you would also be proficient to shoot at people. It was a way of supplementing food, so not really free time. For the rich people (Kings, Jarls and Herremænd) it was part of leisure - you went hunting for fun and so kept your skills tuned. If you actually needed lots of meat for a great feasts, you could also send your elite Sami or local huntsmen retainers to collect it for you.
It seems that most bows in the Viking Age were fairly low powered compared to the later medieval war bows and it shows that people mostly simply turned up with their hunting bows. Some aristocrats did have higher powered warbows.

In the mid-11th century I doubt that Normans and Anglo-Saxon culture has changed all that drastically from Scandinavian culture in those respects. Forest were generally open to all and first much later in the middle ages became exclusively hunting grounds for the nobility (or the church). It is possibly a response to the great population boom in the high middle ages, where available hunting grounds became more and more rare.
You have instances of monks in Northern Sjælland, Denmark (Danish Tæskehold - Litt: Bashing teams) keeping other people out of "their forest" the physical way or at least preventing them from going out with animals.
Off course local people were upset as it was their ancient right to go hunt in the forests! So now not only did you have to stalk pray, but also elude gangs of monks with weapons.
So later in time when you don't have a hunting proficient population you have to think anew. So the English trained with bows to have elite archers. The Swedes still had bowmen (but still large hunting territories) in the late middle ages, whereas the Danes from the 1200's turned to crossbows (that takes much less practice), which likely is the result of no more hunting ground available for other than the nobility.

Peasants (Free men) in Scandinavia were armed (at least to the minimum requirements) and with provisions for several weeks, that was all supplied financially by their "district" (called hæfnæ in Denmark). So one man was picked in each district and provided with weapons and supplies for the campaign.
Only the Noblemen and Churchmen had to pay for their own armour and weapons. In Scandinavia it was called "leding" when the King called for a offensive campaign/defense of realm.
And yes Danish Bishops fought fully armoured when the King called for Leding. At the Battle of Fotevik in 1134, five or six Bishops were slain on the battlefield with numerous priests apparently also fighting and dying.
In Anglo-Saxon England you more or less had the same system called "fyrd" - so free man called for royal campaigns or for protecting their local area.
You had Danish settlers from Northhumbria fighting in Harold's army, so they would have been called to arms through the fyrd - first to fights against the Norwegians and later against the Normans.

Being a peasant (self-owning) in viking age northern europe was clearly equivalent to Middle Class. In fact you are the bulk of "the people" - thralls are not part of the people in the worldview back then (even if they are ethnically the same as the free men).
Craftsmen as such is not even recognized as a "class" in Scandinavia before the middle ages (it was totally outside the system), but it would be regarded as lower class as you didn't own much land beside the house where you worked; but at least by work you could provide for your own subsistence.
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Alexander Hinman




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PostPosted: Tue 26 Apr, 2016 3:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Niels Just Rasmussen wrote:

As for "proof" the source closest to the event actually doesn't say the Viking attackers killed anyone!
What is important to note is that Alcuin worked at the court of Charlemagne (arriving in 782 AD and remained there in the 780's and 790's), so a leading Anglo-Saxon Christian was very much involved when Charlemagne was eradicating the Saxons.

If you read Alcuin's letter to Bishop Higbald from 793 AD and the whole community of Lindisfarne, they are still there!
Source: https://classesv2.yale.edu/access/content/user/haw6/Vikings/higbald.html

So what did the attackers do?
"since the pagans have desecrated God's sanctuary, shed the blood of saints around the altar, laid waste the house of our hope and trampled the bodies of the saints like dung in the street"
So a very deliberate destruction of what was religiously important for the Christians....hmmm interesting.

If this was raiding for financial gain, they would steal it and sail to other places to sell the items, not destroy it.
It's blood of saints and bodies of saints (not blood or bodies of living people - otherwise they would have been stated as martyrs) being shed and trampled.


Martyrs are saints by definition, so your insistence that they would be referred to with one term but not the other requires evidence. Moreover, only the living "shed" blood, and the blood of any earlier saints Lindisfarne held would likely have congealed and dried. There is also nothing to suggest that their desecration was as religiously motivated as you suspect, since some of Lindisfarne's precious metal would be on the altar and the act of pillaging and slaughtering monks qualifies as "laying waste".

Quote:

Then later: "When our lord King Charles returns from defeating his enemies, by God's mercy, I plan to go to him, and if I can then do anything for you about the boys who have been carried off by the pagans as prisoners or about any other of your needs, I shall make every effort to see that it is done".

Oh so your Lord - Alcuin AND the community of Lindisfarne - is Charlemagne! hmmmm interesting and you also plan to go to him (returning to his court).
Charlemagne is also busy defeating his enemies (Saxons). So if Denmark and the Franks are at war Lindisfarne is a totally legitimate target. If the attackers were Saxon noble refugees using Denmark as a base, even more so.


You are reading way too much into the term "our lord". That is just a rote phrasing. Lindisfarne was part of the Kingdom of Northumbria which in no way owed fealty to Charlemagne.

Quote:

Nothing stated explicitly about anyone actually being killed - though later text and people today seems to have this idea, that it was a total slaughter of the entire community.
What can Alcuin say other that next time behave differently:
"You who survive, stand like men, fight bravely and defend the camp of God. Remember how Judas Maccabaeus cleansed the Temple and freed the people from a foreign yoke. If anything needs correction in your way of gentleness, correct it quickly."


The fact that Alcuin must address survivors throws the idea that no-one was killed out the window. A survivor, by definition, is one who has not perished while others have.
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Niels Just Rasmussen




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PostPosted: Tue 26 Apr, 2016 6:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alexander Hinman wrote:
Niels Just Rasmussen wrote:

As for "proof" the source closest to the event actually doesn't say the Viking attackers killed anyone!
What is important to note is that Alcuin worked at the court of Charlemagne (arriving in 782 AD and remained there in the 780's and 790's), so a leading Anglo-Saxon Christian was very much involved when Charlemagne was eradicating the Saxons.

If you read Alcuin's letter to Bishop Higbald from 793 AD and the whole community of Lindisfarne, they are still there!
Source: https://classesv2.yale.edu/access/content/user/haw6/Vikings/higbald.html

So what did the attackers do?
"since the pagans have desecrated God's sanctuary, shed the blood of saints around the altar, laid waste the house of our hope and trampled the bodies of the saints like dung in the street"
So a very deliberate destruction of what was religiously important for the Christians....hmmm interesting.

If this was raiding for financial gain, they would steal it and sail to other places to sell the items, not destroy it.
It's blood of saints and bodies of saints (not blood or bodies of living people - otherwise they would have been stated as martyrs) being shed and trampled.


Martyrs are saints by definition, so your insistence that they would be referred to with one term but not the other requires evidence. Moreover, only the living "shed" blood, and the blood of any earlier saints Lindisfarne held would likely have congealed and dried. There is also nothing to suggest that their desecration was as religiously motivated as you suspect, since some of Lindisfarne's precious metal would be on the altar and the act of pillaging and slaughtering monks qualifies as "laying waste".

Quote:

Then later: "When our lord King Charles returns from defeating his enemies, by God's mercy, I plan to go to him, and if I can then do anything for you about the boys who have been carried off by the pagans as prisoners or about any other of your needs, I shall make every effort to see that it is done".

Oh so your Lord - Alcuin AND the community of Lindisfarne - is Charlemagne! hmmmm interesting and you also plan to go to him (returning to his court).
Charlemagne is also busy defeating his enemies (Saxons). So if Denmark and the Franks are at war Lindisfarne is a totally legitimate target. If the attackers were Saxon noble refugees using Denmark as a base, even more so.


You are reading way too much into the term "our lord". That is just a rote phrasing. Lindisfarne was part of the Kingdom of Northumbria which in no way owed fealty to Charlemagne.

Quote:

Nothing stated explicitly about anyone actually being killed - though later text and people today seems to have this idea, that it was a total slaughter of the entire community.
What can Alcuin say other that next time behave differently:
"You who survive, stand like men, fight bravely and defend the camp of God. Remember how Judas Maccabaeus cleansed the Temple and freed the people from a foreign yoke. If anything needs correction in your way of gentleness, correct it quickly."


The fact that Alcuin must address survivors throws the idea that no-one was killed out the window. A survivor, by definition, is one who has not perished while others have.


I know that my reading is "extreme", but it was to get a point across that the "standard reading" are very much coloured be what followed in the centuries after.

Many saintly images, statures and corpses cried fresh blood according to Catholic beliefs, so a destruction of these saints would cause them to bleed in the theology of the day. Bodies of saints can simply be relics that has been smashed on the ground and desecrated by trampling (its weird to trample on recently killed people - you would just slip in the massive amount of blood). I mean who goes trampling on freshly killed corpses with the leather shoes of the day? But trampling on relics to desecrate them, that makes sense.
The text does not explicitly say that living people has been killed. Off course your assumption is as good as mine, but it is just unclear from the text.
I disagree with the word survivor means with certainty that someone also had to have died. The word survivor doesn't explicitly mean that someone died. If a ship is torpedoed, you can have 100 survivors and 0 casualties. Survivors simply means those who survived the attack and are still there (remember some boys were taken away by the raiders and are not there and cannot be addressed).

As for Martyrs they are certain to reach salvation, but to become a Saint you have to be declared so by the Church.
Later in the middle ages your relics had to have the ability to cause miracles to happen. As early as 793 it was more normal to have the Church declare them as Saints; but this letter is written fairly close to what happened; so it is still unclear whether they are BOTH martyrs and saints. Nowhere in the text is the word martyr stated and that is very odd for a Christian letter if there was living people killed. You would really expect "martyrs and saints" to appear. To refrain from using one of the Christian favourite loaded words "martyr" is very odd.

As for Lindisfarne being under the King of Northumbria, it is VERY odd then he is not at all mentioned in the letter; but it only refers to Charlemagne as "our lord". What an incredible insult that would be, just think about it. If Lindisfarne was under the King of Northumbria he would have been mentioned at least with Charlemagne in the letter; yet ONLY Charlemagne is mentioned as "our Lord".

So I'm not at all saying you are wrong, but sometimes it is necessary to think out of the box if we are to learn something new. A lot of the conventional reading are coloured by later events.
What is significant is why suddenly someone should attack a monastery? Vikings had the skills to do it for several hundred of years - why first in 793 AD after Lindisfarne has been lying there since 634 AD. Just to explain it as "raiding" doesn't really explain anything? Why first raiding now? We don't even know where the raiders were from. To just assume they were "Norwegians" as many do is not based on any facts. They could be Danes, Saxons, Frisians, or a mixture of people. If the explanation is just raid for financial gains, it could have been done by local Anglo-Saxon non-pious criminals.
Why Lindisfarne as first target?

The Saxon-Frankish war in this time period seems to me a the catalyst because it showed a sudden fanatic escalation by Christian against pagans, that could have provoked a revenge attack by some. It could explain why Lindesfarne and why 793 AD?
Just saying it was "Vikings out for a easy financial gain" is like saying that before 793 AD no one in Scandinavian cared about money or raiding and they suddenly got a new idea for getting quick cash? That is to me almost absurd, since Scandinavians had been raiding for centuries from ships before Lindisfarne. Angles and Jutes came from Denmark and raided "Britannia" as pagan "Vikings" before they finally settled it and it became "England".
So Danes and Angles/Jutes apparently didn't raid each other - apparently they felt a close affinity. According to Saxo Dan and Angul were brothers. So Angels were closer to Danes in the Danish mind at least, than Norwegians and Swedes.
Then suddenly Lindisfarne 793 AD happens.

If Lindisfarne is in fact a Frankish monastery under Charlemagne (not under Angles of Northumbria) and we know that some Saxon nobles were fleeing to Denmark then - with perhaps the Danish King's help - they could launch a Saxon(+Danish?) "religious vengeance raid" for the burning of pagan Saxon holy places and then also during the attacks takes captives to exchange them for noble Saxon captives held by Franks. Then the attack and their actions makes sense in time and space.
(Off course they could have taken some thing while there, but we ONLY learn they carried of boys, not other loot).
Because later Vikings looted, it is assumed these raiders looted here as well - but that is history running backwards.......
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Alexander Hinman




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PostPosted: Tue 26 Apr, 2016 12:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Niels Just Rasmussen wrote:

I know that my reading is "extreme", but it was to get a point across that the "standard reading" are very much coloured be what followed in the centuries after.


The standard reading is coloured by contemporary reaction, not some post-facto reflection. Alcuin is explicit about how awful this atrocity is by directly comparing it to the destruction of Jerusalem and the first Temple, the sacking of Rome, and the Hun and Goth invasions of the Roman Empire.

Quote:

Many saintly images, statures and corpses cried fresh blood according to Catholic beliefs, so a destruction of these saints would cause them to bleed in the theology of the day.


Not many, but few. Emission of blood was an exceedingly rare miracle, and the likelihood that an institution as young and distant as Lindisfarne would have a collection of bleeding relics or icons is essentially nil.

Quote:

Bodies of saints can simply be relics that has been smashed on the ground and desecrated by trampling (its weird to trample on recently killed people - you would just slip in the massive amount of blood). I mean who goes trampling on freshly killed corpses with the leather shoes of the day? But trampling on relics to desecrate them, that makes sense.


It is possible they trampled on relics, yes, but that is likely not what he means in context. As for the difficulties of trampling on corpses, there is plenty of reference to trampling enemies both in other near-contemporary chronicles etc and in the Septuagint, with which Alcuin would have been familiar. He may even have been alluding to, or using the same language as Zechariah 10:5. Regardless, it was a common turn of phrase. Even if it is the trampling of relics, there is nothing to imply it was a deliberate act of desecration rather than an incidental action when taking reliquaries.

Quote:

The text does not explicitly say that living people has been killed. Off course your assumption is as good as mine, but it is just unclear from the text.
I disagree with the word survivor means with certainty that someone also had to have died. The word survivor doesn't explicitly mean that someone died. If a ship is torpedoed, you can have 100 survivors and 0 casualties. Survivors simply means those who survived the attack and are still there (remember some boys were taken away by the raiders and are not there and cannot be addressed).


By prefacing "survivors" with "you" he is clearly speaking to a distinct group, meaning that there must be some who did not survive. Captives still have survived a raid, though their lives thereafter may not be guaranteed. In a different letter to King Ethelred of Northumbria, Alcuin states "Behold the Church of St. Cuthbert spattered with the blood of the priests of God, despoiled of all its Ornaments; a place more venerable than all in Britain is given as prey to pagan people". There is really no question about what happened.

Quote:

As for Martyrs they are certain to reach salvation, but to become a Saint you have to be declared so by the Church.


Sainthood is not something bestowed by the Church in this period, especially as we are talking pre-schismatic when Greek and Latin conceptions of sainthood were much more in line. Even late in the middle ages, cults of sainthood could spring up around individuals (such as the one around the 14th century rebel Thomas of Lancaster) without any input from the Papacy.

Quote:

As for Lindisfarne being under the King of Northumbria, it is VERY odd then he is not at all mentioned in the letter; but it only refers to Charlemagne as "our lord". What an incredible insult that would be, just think about it. If Lindisfarne was under the King of Northumbria he would have been mentioned at least with Charlemagne in the letter; yet ONLY Charlemagne is mentioned as "our Lord".


It is not odd or insulting at all, and I don't see how it would be. Charlemagne is only brought up in the context of trying to free the captives and nothing else. This is because the boats would have sailed back East, i.e. away from Britain. The letter itself is addressed to the Bishop, and has no concerns other than the raid and what sort of sins by the monks might have kept God from protecting them. Notice the very notion of protection by any king is not even brought up. Alcuin sends another letter to the King of Northumbria (cited above) which you would know if you had done any research on the topic. You would also know that the Northmen had appeared earlier, in 789, according to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle.

Quote:

So I'm not at all saying you are wrong, but sometimes it is necessary to think out of the box if we are to learn something new. A lot of the conventional reading are coloured by later events.


Uninformed "thinking outside the box" can lead to all kinds of conclusions, but that doesn't make it useful, and in this case it is plainly ridiculous. You clearly haven't done any homework as you aren't engaging with the topic seriously. You are instead doing the grotesque work of sanitizing and justifying an unambiguous atrocity.

Sorry for the derail, OP, but this kind of revisionism gets under my skin.
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Niels Just Rasmussen




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PostPosted: Tue 26 Apr, 2016 2:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alexander Hinman wrote:
Niels Just Rasmussen wrote:

I know that my reading is "extreme", but it was to get a point across that the "standard reading" are very much coloured be what followed in the centuries after.


The standard reading is coloured by contemporary reaction, not some post-facto reflection. Alcuin is explicit about how awful this atrocity is by directly comparing it to the destruction of Jerusalem and the first Temple, the sacking of Rome, and the Hun and Goth invasions of the Roman Empire.

Quote:

Many saintly images, statures and corpses cried fresh blood according to Catholic beliefs, so a destruction of these saints would cause them to bleed in the theology of the day.


Not many, but few. Emission of blood was an exceedingly rare miracle, and the likelihood that an institution as young and distant as Lindisfarne would have a collection of bleeding relics or icons is essentially nil.

Quote:

Bodies of saints can simply be relics that has been smashed on the ground and desecrated by trampling (its weird to trample on recently killed people - you would just slip in the massive amount of blood). I mean who goes trampling on freshly killed corpses with the leather shoes of the day? But trampling on relics to desecrate them, that makes sense.


It is possible they trampled on relics, yes, but that is likely not what he means in context. As for the difficulties of trampling on corpses, there is plenty of reference to trampling enemies both in other near-contemporary chronicles etc and in the Septuagint, with which Alcuin would have been familiar. He may even have been alluding to, or using the same language as Zechariah 10:5. Regardless, it was a common turn of phrase. Even if it is the trampling of relics, there is nothing to imply it was a deliberate act of desecration rather than an incidental action when taking reliquaries.

Quote:

The text does not explicitly say that living people has been killed. Off course your assumption is as good as mine, but it is just unclear from the text.
I disagree with the word survivor means with certainty that someone also had to have died. The word survivor doesn't explicitly mean that someone died. If a ship is torpedoed, you can have 100 survivors and 0 casualties. Survivors simply means those who survived the attack and are still there (remember some boys were taken away by the raiders and are not there and cannot be addressed).


By prefacing "survivors" with "you" he is clearly speaking to a distinct group, meaning that there must be some who did not survive. Captives still have survived a raid, though their lives thereafter may not be guaranteed. In a different letter to King Ethelred of Northumbria, Alcuin states "Behold the Church of St. Cuthbert spattered with the blood of the priests of God, despoiled of all its Ornaments; a place more venerable than all in Britain is given as prey to pagan people". There is really no question about what happened.

Quote:

As for Martyrs they are certain to reach salvation, but to become a Saint you have to be declared so by the Church.


Sainthood is not something bestowed by the Church in this period, especially as we are talking pre-schismatic when Greek and Latin conceptions of sainthood were much more in line. Even late in the middle ages, cults of sainthood could spring up around individuals (such as the one around the 14th century rebel Thomas of Lancaster) without any input from the Papacy.

Quote:

As for Lindisfarne being under the King of Northumbria, it is VERY odd then he is not at all mentioned in the letter; but it only refers to Charlemagne as "our lord". What an incredible insult that would be, just think about it. If Lindisfarne was under the King of Northumbria he would have been mentioned at least with Charlemagne in the letter; yet ONLY Charlemagne is mentioned as "our Lord".


It is not odd or insulting at all, and I don't see how it would be. Charlemagne is only brought up in the context of trying to free the captives and nothing else. This is because the boats would have sailed back East, i.e. away from Britain. The letter itself is addressed to the Bishop, and has no concerns other than the raid and what sort of sins by the monks might have kept God from protecting them. Notice the very notion of protection by any king is not even brought up. Alcuin sends another letter to the King of Northumbria (cited above) which you would know if you had done any research on the topic. You would also know that the Northmen had appeared earlier, in 789, according to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle.

Quote:

So I'm not at all saying you are wrong, but sometimes it is necessary to think out of the box if we are to learn something new. A lot of the conventional reading are coloured by later events.


Uninformed "thinking outside the box" can lead to all kinds of conclusions, but that doesn't make it useful, and in this case it is plainly ridiculous. You clearly haven't done any homework as you aren't engaging with the topic seriously. You are instead doing the grotesque work of sanitizing and justifying an unambiguous atrocity.

Sorry for the derail, OP, but this kind of revisionism gets under my skin.


Well science is about falsification (verification is for religion and ideology). Everything must be questioned and tested all the time with new hypothesis. I'm putting a new hypothesis out in the air here so people who are informed can falsify it where I clearly have made errors. That you spend time answering this is great. But I'm not trying any kind of "revisionism" and I don't see why should get under your skin to discuss these things.

The key point in my hypothesis is really that the beginning attacks in England and France could either be a vengeance response to the Frankish extermination of the Old Saxon culture perhaps initiated by Saxon nobles fleeing to Denmark OR a deliberate plan of harassment from the Danish King along Christian coastlines to cause terror and spread forces more thin to keep the enemy busy.
When Godfred dies in 810 AD it seems Denmark's next ruler the nephew Hemming (810-812 AD) makes peace with the Emperor and then you have a long period of civil war between pretenders in Denmark.
It is very possible that once you start having people raiding, even after peace has been conducted by the new Danish King (who doesn't sit very long) and with constant in fighting afterwards, that a lot of the raiders go "solo" as they by continued raiding can increase their wealth and power in society.
So why does it start in 789 AD and 793 AD - it fits totally with the Saxon war and Denmark increasing involvement.
Suddenly the attacks start and they grow in scope fast.

Again under King Horik I 827-854 AD the attack on the Franks are conducted under royal leadership or supervision. These are NOT just solo viking raids "for profit". This is mass-scale warfare against a Christian threat to Denmark as Horik I is strongly pagan! Attacks on Frisia is conducted again, probably in Danish propaganda is liberating the North Frisian from the Frankish-Christian yoke.

So whether people were killed or not or in massive numbers or not at Lindisfarne or whether they only stole books or actually primarily destroy holy things is actually quite secondary to my overall point of "timing". Why 780-790's and not 100 or 200 years before did the raiding start?

But you have given me a lot of good points and information which I wouldn't have gotten without placing this hypothesis out here. I will reply to them when I have more time. Wink
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T. Kew




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PostPosted: Tue 26 Apr, 2016 4:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some sketched thoughts follow. Sadly I don't have time to develop this in detail for at least a few weeks, or even properly extract and consult my degree notes on the early Viking age.

Niels Just Rasmussen wrote:
Well science is about falsification (verification is for religion and ideology). Everything must be questioned and tested all the time with new hypothesis. I'm putting a new hypothesis out in the air here so people who are informed can falsify it where I clearly have made errors. That you spend time answering this is great. But I'm not trying any kind of "revisionism" and I don't see why should get under your skin to discuss these things.


Obviously, ideas should be discussed and questioned. What raised my hackles in particular is that you did not present your position as a tentative idea - you have simply stated it as fact. As has been observed, the way you've handled contemporary evidence such as Alcuin's letters suggests that this hypothesis has to disregard a number of factors, so it becomes difficult to discuss it clearly.

If you want to pursue this line of argument in detail, you should really spend some time familiarising yourself with the contemporary historical sources, which would help clear up a number of the questions you've had to be corrected on. This is a necessary stage in trying to propose a new idea.

Niels Just Rasmussen wrote:

The key point in my hypothesis is really that the beginning attacks in England and France could either be a vengeance response to the Frankish extermination of the Old Saxon culture perhaps initiated by Saxon nobles fleeing to Denmark OR a deliberate plan of harassment from the Danish King along Christian coastlines to cause terror and spread forces more thin to keep the enemy busy.


At this early point, we simply don't have the evidence to suggest that either side saw this as a religious war against a monolithic foe. Raiding Northumbria to try and terrify the Franks would have been clearly ineffective to the Danes.

Furthermore, you have carefully avoided the question of why it is believed to be the Danes who are raiding here. The single example of an early contact with the north of England which we can localise is Othere, and he's a Norwegian. Later patterns of invasion and settlement also reflect this: while the Danes absolutely could sail across to northern England, they instead primarily operated along the coast down past the low countries to France, and attacked England along the eastern coast from East Anglia round to Wessex.

Niels Just Rasmussen wrote:
When Godfred dies in 810 AD it seems Denmark's next ruler the nephew Hemming (810-812 AD) makes peace with the Emperor and then you have a long period of civil war between pretenders in Denmark.
It is very possible that once you start having people raiding, even after peace has been conducted by the new Danish King (who doesn't sit very long) and with constant in fighting afterwards, that a lot of the raiders go "solo" as they by continued raiding can increase their wealth and power in society.
So why does it start in 789 AD and 793 AD - it fits totally with the Saxon war and Denmark increasing involvement.
Suddenly the attacks start and they grow in scope fast.


Lots of stuff starts to happen at around this point. Most interestingly, it is approximately contemporary with the first waves of Norwegian settlement in the Faroes. This is indicative that it might be social changes caused by population growth which trigger this wave of expansion. The war between the Franks and the Saxons may be independent of this, or it may be driven by similar demographic factors - it's very hard to be certain. But the assumption that two events being approximately correlated means that one must cause the other is very weak.

Niels Just Rasmussen wrote:
Again under King Horik I 827-854 AD the attack on the Franks are conducted under royal leadership or supervision. These are NOT just solo viking raids "for profit". This is mass-scale warfare against a Christian threat to Denmark as Horik I is strongly pagan! Attacks on Frisia is conducted again, probably in Danish propaganda is liberating the North Frisian from the Frankish-Christian yoke.


Note that this is raiding into Frankish territory directly, which is a much more plausible target as part of a war being waged against the Franks. Lindisfarne is not such a target.

Niels Just Rasmussen wrote:
So whether people were killed or not or in massive numbers or not at Lindisfarne or whether they only stole books or actually primarily destroy holy things is actually quite secondary to my overall point of "timing". Why 780-790's and not 100 or 200 years before did the raiding start?

But you have given me a lot of good points and information which I wouldn't have gotten without placing this hypothesis out here. I will reply to them when I have more time. ;)


As I indicated above, the question about why raiding started when it did in the late 8th century is quite unclear.

One of the most plausible suggestions is that there was a significant increase in population growth. Most Scandinavian societies at this time operated a system of partible inheritance, so even a relatively small jump in the population could result in a large number of younger men who are inheriting too little property to make a proper living on. Indeed, one could simply attribute this to being the inevitable result of such a system which happens to become a crisis at this point.

This sort of shortage of land (and thus wealth) could easily trigger a campaign of both raiding and colonisation, which fits quite well with the events of the Atlantic Viking Age.



Finally, a few quick thoughts on Alcuin: The reason Alcuin writes of Charlemagne is as 'our lord' is very simple: while originally Northumbrian, he is a member of Charlemagne's court, and so Charlemagne is his lord. However, that doesn't mean that Charlemagne has any authority over or involvement with Lindisfarne.

Alcuin will have been informed (by letter) of a version of events. It is this report he is reacting to, not first-hand evidence of the raid. This report includes a mention of kidnap, so he says that he'll ask Charlemagne to try and help. This also doesn't imply that captives had been taken to anywhere Charlemagne was directly acting.

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Niels Just Rasmussen




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PostPosted: Wed 27 Apr, 2016 11:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alexander Hinman wrote:
Niels Just Rasmussen wrote:

I know that my reading is "extreme", but it was to get a point across that the "standard reading" are very much coloured be what followed in the centuries after.


The standard reading is coloured by contemporary reaction, not some post-facto reflection. Alcuin is explicit about how awful this atrocity is by directly comparing it to the destruction of Jerusalem and the first Temple, the sacking of Rome, and the Hun and Goth invasions of the Roman Empire.

Quote:

Many saintly images, statures and corpses cried fresh blood according to Catholic beliefs, so a destruction of these saints would cause them to bleed in the theology of the day.


Not many, but few. Emission of blood was an exceedingly rare miracle, and the likelihood that an institution as young and distant as Lindisfarne would have a collection of bleeding relics or icons is essentially nil.

Quote:

Bodies of saints can simply be relics that has been smashed on the ground and desecrated by trampling (its weird to trample on recently killed people - you would just slip in the massive amount of blood). I mean who goes trampling on freshly killed corpses with the leather shoes of the day? But trampling on relics to desecrate them, that makes sense.


It is possible they trampled on relics, yes, but that is likely not what he means in context. As for the difficulties of trampling on corpses, there is plenty of reference to trampling enemies both in other near-contemporary chronicles etc and in the Septuagint, with which Alcuin would have been familiar. He may even have been alluding to, or using the same language as Zechariah 10:5. Regardless, it was a common turn of phrase. Even if it is the trampling of relics, there is nothing to imply it was a deliberate act of desecration rather than an incidental action when taking reliquaries.

Quote:

The text does not explicitly say that living people has been killed. Off course your assumption is as good as mine, but it is just unclear from the text.
I disagree with the word survivor means with certainty that someone also had to have died. The word survivor doesn't explicitly mean that someone died. If a ship is torpedoed, you can have 100 survivors and 0 casualties. Survivors simply means those who survived the attack and are still there (remember some boys were taken away by the raiders and are not there and cannot be addressed).


By prefacing "survivors" with "you" he is clearly speaking to a distinct group, meaning that there must be some who did not survive. Captives still have survived a raid, though their lives thereafter may not be guaranteed. In a different letter to King Ethelred of Northumbria, Alcuin states "Behold the Church of St. Cuthbert spattered with the blood of the priests of God, despoiled of all its Ornaments; a place more venerable than all in Britain is given as prey to pagan people". There is really no question about what happened.

Quote:

As for Martyrs they are certain to reach salvation, but to become a Saint you have to be declared so by the Church.


Sainthood is not something bestowed by the Church in this period, especially as we are talking pre-schismatic when Greek and Latin conceptions of sainthood were much more in line. Even late in the middle ages, cults of sainthood could spring up around individuals (such as the one around the 14th century rebel Thomas of Lancaster) without any input from the Papacy.

Quote:

As for Lindisfarne being under the King of Northumbria, it is VERY odd then he is not at all mentioned in the letter; but it only refers to Charlemagne as "our lord". What an incredible insult that would be, just think about it. If Lindisfarne was under the King of Northumbria he would have been mentioned at least with Charlemagne in the letter; yet ONLY Charlemagne is mentioned as "our Lord".


It is not odd or insulting at all, and I don't see how it would be. Charlemagne is only brought up in the context of trying to free the captives and nothing else. This is because the boats would have sailed back East, i.e. away from Britain. The letter itself is addressed to the Bishop, and has no concerns other than the raid and what sort of sins by the monks might have kept God from protecting them. Notice the very notion of protection by any king is not even brought up. Alcuin sends another letter to the King of Northumbria (cited above) which you would know if you had done any research on the topic. You would also know that the Northmen had appeared earlier, in 789, according to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle.


Firstly one can clearly say that Alcuin is using extreme hyperbole here. That the attack on Lindisfarne is thought to equivalent to these famous events: "Destruction of Jerusalem and the first Temple, the sacking of Rome, and the Hun and Goth invasions of the Roman Empire"? Its like saying in modern times that any incident involving some human deaths by criminals is "like 9/11". Scale is here just crazily out of proportion. So it doesn't say anything about what "really" happened in terms of actual number of fatalities.

OK I see you have good points with it being actually men (and bodies of dead saints) bleeding and dead trampled upon around (in front of?) the alter and Alcuin's letter to Æthelred cements that fact!

That makes sense if a group of people tried to prevent the raiders from stealing/destroying the holy books and relics. But since we clearly have survivors and captives we are talking about how many people being in the way of the alter? So 5, 10, 20?
The survivors possibly being those who wasn't standing in the way of the holy items at the alter. How many was present in the church to begin with, the survivors being those not in there? Bishop Higbald apparently wasn't at the alter, since he survived or was he? Such a shame his letter to Alcuin is apparently lost (haven't found any link to it).
Alcuin's letter to King Ethelred of Northumbria. "Behold the Church of St. Cuthbert spattered with the blood of the priests of God, despoiled of all its Ornaments; a place more venerable than all in Britain is given as prey to pagan people". Yet still doesn't give as any kind of number of actual deaths? Especially when we know that kind of hyperbole Alcuin is clearly using.
Is 5 like the Destruction of Jerusalem & Sack of Rome? Is 10, 20, 50?

This episode is hardly equivalent to the destruction of Jerusalem or even the Frankish Verden massacre in 782 AD, where Charlemagne beheaded 4.500 Saxon pagan captives in a single day and sold many more into slavery and also Charlemagne force-relocated people from their homelands.
That is epic butchery and savagery.
Charlemagne was apparently convinced to adopt this savage "convert or die" Christian strategy by Abbot Sturm of Fulda and Archbishop Lul of Mainz (he was Anglo-Saxon by birth). Alcuin himself had actually warned Charlemagne that "violence only begets violence" if he started to conduct war in this way.
Source: Sean McGlynn (2014) By Sword and Fire: Cruelty And Atrocity In Medieval Warfare.

Strange that Alcuin has seemingly forgotten his own warning just 11 years later? It would make perfect sense to state that he was right and the "convert or die" strategy would lead to a disaster like Lindisfarne, so we must return to the old and true way of conducting mission among the pagans as from Augustin of Canterbury?
Is he by this point 11 years later on board the "convert-or-die" version of Christianity -> using Lindisfarne politically to press on the heavy-hand policy?
OR does he think that the Verden massacre is something between Franks & Saxons (and their Danish allies) and so have no influence on Anglo-Saxon England. He explains it in the letter to Ætheled of being the sinful ways of the Anglo-Saxons and with sign preceding it (bloody rain). He even attacks people's style of beards and hair if they look to "pagan".
Still he only states the attackers are pagan, so no info where they are from. Is it even clear they are Scandinavians or do anyone just assume that because of later events?

I understand your point that locally at this time you just automatically declared martyrs for saints (not waiting for any official church declaration), but I still find it peculiar that the word martyr is not used even once?
I admit I have read mostly early church fathers where many have a heavy focus on martyrs, so the words total exclusion (even where it should really be expected to appear) from being mentioned is a particular element for the time and/or Anglo-Saxon England?!

Still the letter says "our lord" - so both Higbald and Alcuin has Charlemagne as "our lord". Alcuin could have written "my lord" about Charlemagne to Bishop Higbald of Lindisfarne.
So what Lord was Bishop Higbald under: Æthelred of Northumbria or Charlemagne of the Franks? 
Alcuin is his letter to Æthelred does NOT call him "my lord" in the introduction. He simply states "To the most beloved lord King Æthelred and all his chief men, Alcuin the humble deacon, sends greeting."
Source: http://historyonline.chadwyck.co.uk/getImage?...mp;IE=.pdf
So Alcuin's lord is clearly Charlemagne.
Sadly I don't know if any of Higbald's letters to Æthelred or Alcuin have survived to figure this out?
But from the sources available here it must mean that Higbald and Alcuin think of Charlemagne as "our Lord".

The information Alcuin gives next is interesting. He will go to Charlemagne to negotiate to get the captured boys released.
Really ?-> how will you do that if it was some unknown pagans from somewhere unknown making plunder then sailing away?
To negotiate you have to negotiate with someone and that someone has to be someone of power to actually make it possible to get an exchange!
Who in the pagan world could that be? -> possible only the Danish King (remember Norway doesn't even exist yet, just multiple small Petty Kingdoms).
So Alcuin must have at least have some idea of who actually conducted the attack on Lindisfarne? That makes it fairly likely that it was Saxons and/or /Danes taking captives, so a negotiation even can be conducted to start with.

Norway probably at this time had perhaps between 7-11 different Kingdoms and 1 great Jarldom (Hålogaland).
With constant in-fighting, inter-marrieges and so on it would change a lot.
Also something that is often forgotten is that the Danish population by FAR outranked the Norwegian one in this period.
These numbers below are only tentative (great uncertainty - but the relative difference is at least 5:1 in the 1200's as well) as it is off course very hard to precisely calculate with anything else than archaeological finds.
800 AD: Approximately 500.000 Danes
800 AD: Around 80.000 "Norwegians" - possible spread over 8-12 "states". So overpopulation can still be in effect, but the overpopulation will be in a few of thousands at maximum each generation, which fairly fits with the population number settling on these Islands.
The Oslo area (Viken) and Bohuslen (Ranriki/Alfheim) were often under the Danish Kingdom - and very likely it was under King Sigfred (King until ~800) and especially under King Godfred (804-810) - so the population base of that area should then be added to Danes and subtracted from "Norwegians".

So seeing "Norwegians" hands everywhere is pushing it this early (later more united they will get to be a powerhouse).
They have to put people on the Faroese Islands, Shetland, Orkney, Iceland, Outer Hebrides, North Scotland and still be having people left back at home over the next century. At this point they have apparently only recently colonized Faroese Islands and is also in the process of colonizing Shetland, but not yet Orkney.
So if the attack is from "Norwegians" it would be conducted from the Faroese Islands or Shetland or from some of the South Western "Norwegian" Kingdoms of Agder & Rogaland being the two closest and most likely. But the population base of these areas are small and they would only able to conduct small scale raids with a few ships.
It is possible that Norwegians from any of these places raided Lindisfarne, but Alcuin's and Charlemagne's chances of negotiating their release would be only slightly above impossible. If the boys were taking to the Faroese Islands or Shetland, what then? Only through the Danish King could anything be done with it, but he had probably very little power up there.

There is generally a problem with the 789 AD (787 AD) entry. In most of the versions there is nothing about the Vikings attacking in 789 AD. It seems the version-with-a-Danish-appearence is an add-on at a much later date. So this entry is extremely dubious historically (so perhaps a moderation before accusing others of not knowing their sources, when a source then put forward as an example is extremely dubious).

According to the "normally seen" explanation: Three ships from Hordaland should land in Dorset (Kingdom of Wessex) and be referred to as Danes. Another thing that is a problem of geography: 3 ships from Hordaland goes over the North Sea in 789 AD and then attacks in Dorset? Really, they couldn't find anywhere closer to make the first surprise attack (like Lindisfarne which they would pass on the way TWICE?).

A. 787. This year king Bertric took to wife Eadburga,
king Offa's daughter ; and in his days first came three ships
of Northmen, out of Hæretha-land
[Denmark]. And then
the reve* rode to the place, and would have driven them to
the king's town, because he knew not who they were : and
they there slew him. These were the first ships of Danish-
men which sought the land of the English nation
.
Source: https://archive.org/details/anglosaxonchroni00gile

"Her nam Byrhtric cing Offan dohtor Eadburge, 7 on his dagum coman ærest .iii. scipu Norðmanna, 7 þa se gerefa þærto rad 7 hie wolde drifan to þæs cinges tune, þy he nyste hwæt hie wæron, 7 hine man ðær ofsloh. Þæt wæron þa ærestan scipu deniscra manna þe Angelcynnes land gesohtan."
Source (Folie 12v, Manuscript B): http://asc.jebbo.co.uk/b/b-P.html

Hæretha-land is a later insertion to the text - in this text version referred to as Denmark - but apparently by some scholars as Hordaland in modern Norway. Since they are called Danes it would more like be Hardaland in Jutland (Hardsyssel) and perhaps vastly more likely? Where is Hardsyssel? -> Ringkøbing area in Western Jutland which is closest to England and where you can have ships ready for assembly in the fjord.

Furthermore they kill the reeve, that tries to drive them to the Kings town because he doesn't know them.
Maybe they are just normal merchants causing trouble and he is their to arrest them and bring them to the justice (thus into town) and it ends in heated words and killing (very manly for pagans).
If they were raiding as a hostile army you would meet them as an army.
Compared with Lindisfarne this episode is not even certainly a raid. Nothing is said about raiding. They kill the reeve at that seems to be it. Could even be a blood-revenge killing?

The last sentence seems again totally out of proportion and is almost clearly written later: "These were the first ships of Danish-men which sought the land of the English nation"; an after-thought from when Danes did seek LAND in England (The Great Heathen Army, which were Danish).
Its also a strange one laughable afterthought -> seeking land is conquest (and not raiding).
So conquest of England (even if only Wessex) with men from 3 ships, yeah right 3. Laughing Out Loud Vikings were not THAT good.

The -æ- is Hæretha-land is pronounced in Anglo-Saxon essentially like the first Danish a in Hardaland (modern Hardsyssel). Syssel is a district suffix like this English example York-shire. Whereas Hordaland in Norway is with an -o- which is clearly different.
So basically it seems that this 3 ships are Danish merchants who end up being criminals, but not raiders.
Norðmanna doesn't mean "Norwegian" in around ~800 AD (clearly Norway doesn't even exist yet, hard also to find traces of "Canadians" in the middle ages as well) -> many Norðmanna settled in Normandy (hence the name, and from place name studies some scholars had the opinion that 80% of the place names are specifically Danish, while it is possible that 20% were "Norwegian" and it is unclear whether "Rollo" was Danish or from some "Norwegian" Kingdom).

By the way Hardsyssel would be the perfect place in Western Jutland for an assault against Lindisfarne in 793 AD.

My conclusions so far in readings these particular sources:
So the assault in 793 AD is still as likely to be conducted by Danes, Saxons, North Frisians as someone from "Norway". We simply just don't know. Alcuin writes in this letter to Æthelred "prey of pagan peoples" - we can't even be sure its Scandinavians as Saxons and North Frisians also have some pagans left at this point. But note he uses a plural "peoples"!
That again makes a combined Saxon-Danish expedition possible - and where Charlemagne and Alcuin could negotiate.

The 789 AD is to dubious to really count in this discussion of when attacks began.
The 793 AD still seems still like the first real raid!

Anglo-Saxon chronicle entry for 793 AD - Fiery Dragons in the sky (!) and heathen men, destroying God's Church through rapine and slaughter.
Heathen men, rapine and slaughter. So again we only learn that heathen men (no origin) stole and made slaughter (no number given, but at least 2 for it to be a slaughter?). Fiery Dragons in the sky, no idea; but it is likely there as a "sign" to indicate that something special would happen.

The amount of destruction of this attack is impossible to detect in Alcuin's wild hyperbole.
Blood in the alter from saints, saints tramples, boys taken we learn in the letter to Higbald.
Blood of "priests of God" spattered in the church, church despoiled of ornaments according to the letter to Æthelred.
So at least 2 priests died and spattered the floor and at least two boys were taken (they are both in stated plural); but any more certainty than that is hard to say.
Trying to read later events into former events is not proof of mass-slaughter at Lindisfarne.
Anyone have seen an estimate of how many lived at Lindisfarne in 793 AD, or is it simply unknown?
But it is a bit weird that we don't have an exact number of dead. Bishop Higbald must have counted the died in his own church (for instance when burying them) and how many boys were actually missing and then told Alcuin in his letter, since he most likely is asking for help and guidance in how to get them back??

So why is Alcuin not giving that information on to King Æthelred at least?
Another strange thing unless off course Alcuin knows that Higbald has already informed Æthelred?

Or Alcuin is deliberate in hiding that information to Æthelred for some agenda (remember beard and hair mode and other sinful ways in Northumbria, so this instance has to look really bad!).


Last edited by Niels Just Rasmussen on Wed 27 Apr, 2016 1:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Niels Just Rasmussen




Location: Nykøbing Falster, Denmark
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PostPosted: Wed 27 Apr, 2016 1:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

T. Kew wrote:
Some sketched thoughts follow. Sadly I don't have time to develop this in detail for at least a few weeks, or even properly extract and consult my degree notes on the early Viking age.

Niels Just Rasmussen wrote:
Well science is about falsification (verification is for religion and ideology). Everything must be questioned and tested all the time with new hypothesis. I'm putting a new hypothesis out in the air here so people who are informed can falsify it where I clearly have made errors. That you spend time answering this is great. But I'm not trying any kind of "revisionism" and I don't see why should get under your skin to discuss these things.


Obviously, ideas should be discussed and questioned. What raised my hackles in particular is that you did not present your position as a tentative idea - you have simply stated it as fact. As has been observed, the way you've handled contemporary evidence such as Alcuin's letters suggests that this hypothesis has to disregard a number of factors, so it becomes difficult to discuss it clearly.

If you want to pursue this line of argument in detail, you should really spend some time familiarising yourself with the contemporary historical sources, which would help clear up a number of the questions you've had to be corrected on. This is a necessary stage in trying to propose a new idea.

Niels Just Rasmussen wrote:

The key point in my hypothesis is really that the beginning attacks in England and France could either be a vengeance response to the Frankish extermination of the Old Saxon culture perhaps initiated by Saxon nobles fleeing to Denmark OR a deliberate plan of harassment from the Danish King along Christian coastlines to cause terror and spread forces more thin to keep the enemy busy.


At this early point, we simply don't have the evidence to suggest that either side saw this as a religious war against a monolithic foe. Raiding Northumbria to try and terrify the Franks would have been clearly ineffective to the Danes.

Furthermore, you have carefully avoided the question of why it is believed to be the Danes who are raiding here. The single example of an early contact with the north of England which we can localise is Othere, and he's a Norwegian. Later patterns of invasion and settlement also reflect this: while the Danes absolutely could sail across to northern England, they instead primarily operated along the coast down past the low countries to France, and attacked England along the eastern coast from East Anglia round to Wessex.

Niels Just Rasmussen wrote:
When Godfred dies in 810 AD it seems Denmark's next ruler the nephew Hemming (810-812 AD) makes peace with the Emperor and then you have a long period of civil war between pretenders in Denmark.
It is very possible that once you start having people raiding, even after peace has been conducted by the new Danish King (who doesn't sit very long) and with constant in fighting afterwards, that a lot of the raiders go "solo" as they by continued raiding can increase their wealth and power in society.
So why does it start in 789 AD and 793 AD - it fits totally with the Saxon war and Denmark increasing involvement.
Suddenly the attacks start and they grow in scope fast.


Lots of stuff starts to happen at around this point. Most interestingly, it is approximately contemporary with the first waves of Norwegian settlement in the Faroes. This is indicative that it might be social changes caused by population growth which trigger this wave of expansion. The war between the Franks and the Saxons may be independent of this, or it may be driven by similar demographic factors - it's very hard to be certain. But the assumption that two events being approximately correlated means that one must cause the other is very weak.

Niels Just Rasmussen wrote:
Again under King Horik I 827-854 AD the attack on the Franks are conducted under royal leadership or supervision. These are NOT just solo viking raids "for profit". This is mass-scale warfare against a Christian threat to Denmark as Horik I is strongly pagan! Attacks on Frisia is conducted again, probably in Danish propaganda is liberating the North Frisian from the Frankish-Christian yoke.


Note that this is raiding into Frankish territory directly, which is a much more plausible target as part of a war being waged against the Franks. Lindisfarne is not such a target.

Niels Just Rasmussen wrote:
So whether people were killed or not or in massive numbers or not at Lindisfarne or whether they only stole books or actually primarily destroy holy things is actually quite secondary to my overall point of "timing". Why 780-790's and not 100 or 200 years before did the raiding start?

But you have given me a lot of good points and information which I wouldn't have gotten without placing this hypothesis out here. I will reply to them when I have more time. Wink


As I indicated above, the question about why raiding started when it did in the late 8th century is quite unclear.

One of the most plausible suggestions is that there was a significant increase in population growth. Most Scandinavian societies at this time operated a system of partible inheritance, so even a relatively small jump in the population could result in a large number of younger men who are inheriting too little property to make a proper living on. Indeed, one could simply attribute this to being the inevitable result of such a system which happens to become a crisis at this point.

This sort of shortage of land (and thus wealth) could easily trigger a campaign of both raiding and colonisation, which fits quite well with the events of the Atlantic Viking Age.

Finally, a few quick thoughts on Alcuin: The reason Alcuin writes of Charlemagne is as 'our lord' is very simple: while originally Northumbrian, he is a member of Charlemagne's court, and so Charlemagne is his lord. However, that doesn't mean that Charlemagne has any authority over or involvement with Lindisfarne.

Alcuin will have been informed (by letter) of a version of events. It is this report he is reacting to, not first-hand evidence of the raid. This report includes a mention of kidnap, so he says that he'll ask Charlemagne to try and help. This also doesn't imply that captives had been taken to anywhere Charlemagne was directly acting.


If I presented it in an unattended way I'm sorry for that. It was MY alternative reading of the letter, not any reading generally acknowledged as fact.
I'm trying to read all I can which you will see from many posts I make on this forum; and I'm grateful for any input even harsh ones, so long they are not personal (like I'm not reading sources; I read those I know exists and I'll be happy to know more). I doubt many here knows a lot about the Scandinavian sources, but I don't go around bashing individual people on the head for that, but try to explain linguistic, geographical and political events that happens in Scandinavia at the same time, that could have a very important impact on these events.
Some scholars (stating: NOT all) of Vikings have really only a fragmentary knowledge of the people they actually study (generally only from non-Scandinavian written sources), so I think that stalls new thinking in the field OR at least keep stereotypes among laymen researchers.

I still have the opinion as also stated in my post above, that many people "read future events into past events" when it comes to the these episodes. So I try to thrown in a different "optic".

??? I haven't avoided why Danes should have attacked - actually have been stating it clearly.
I have stated it was most likely Saxons with possible Danish help (in boats and numbers, maybe supported by the Danish King) that would have attacked this holy site as revenge for Irmunsul and Verden. But they could also be doing it without the Danish kings knowledge. [See also discussion of "our lord" later]

So why Lindisfarne specifically: I'll now state clearly - because it was an especially holy site (Church of St Cuthbert). It would be a fairly lightly defended Christian site if you wanted to have revenge for Irminsul. Revenge matters a lot for pagans!
So I think Saxon noble refugees in Denmark are the most likely for conducting the raid (perhaps boosted with some Danes) to be the most likely. It explain the attack on a famous unprotected Christian center and why they take boys with them.
Taking of boys as prisoners as a way to maybe release Saxon prisoners (Add now: or those also sold into slavery in the Christian world) held by the Franks.
Remember thralls are worth very little in Denmark. With overpopulation you already have a lot of native thralls, so if they are intended as slaves, they have to be sold on a Christian marked.
[Unless the raiders are from the Faroese Islands or Shetland, who would likely need thralls (but why go all the way down to Lindisfarne for them??); but then also Alcuin would have no chance to get them back by negotiation.]

But it could both be Danes or Saxons or "Norwegians"; but it is not stated in any source. Assuming "Norwegians" without question is as I stated geographically wrong. Distance from Western Jutland to Lindisfarne and distance from South-Western Norway to Lindisfarne is almost the same and it takes 24 hours in a small warship sailing at average speed from Western Jutland (630 km from Hardsyssel area) in a normal warship sailing 14 knots. It takes 22 hours from Stavanger, Norway. That is negligible. Its routine for Scandinavians sailors in this time period to cross open waters. Viking ships are made for that. They have been going to the Faroese Islands around this time and that forces you to open water sailing.

So it is totally equally possible it is people from "Norway" just raiding. The sources are simply to unclear to tell which.

That Danes had no contacts with Anglo-Saxons in Northumbria the late 8th century is really unlikely.
An Angle-territory of people that originally came from Southern Denmark/Northern Germany (depending on which periods borders you use) would have no contact with the territory they left? Archaeology shows that trade between Denmark and England in the Neolithic (Danish flint were important on big scale to England) and Bronze Age periods and continuing in the Iron Age and Viking Ages. Why should they not trade in the late 8th century?

Quoting:
"During the Migration period the present-day Danish area is considered the centre of Scandinavia. Many minor kingdoms were in existence. According to Näsman (2000, 5) several tribal units initially formed a confederation under Danish hegemony which later (in the 6th century) developed into a more coherent kingdom.
Its centre was in central Denmark, south Jutland, Funen and Zeeland, its periphery was north Jutland, Scania-Blekinge-Bornholm, south Sweden, and in the Merovingian period perhaps also parts of south Norway. Gudme in the south-eastern part of Funen was a central place and Lundeborg was the trading centre connected to it (Nielsen et al. 1994). Northern Scandinavia consolidated its royal system later (Hedeager 1992, 291). As already mentioned, Scandinavia was not much affected by the migrations. The Danes had already moved from north east during the previous centuries. Only the Jutes seem partly to have left Jutland in the mid 5th century.
[ME: and Angles south of the Jutes; that area first became Danish after it is left empty as all the Angles moved away].

In the 7th century the contacts between Scandinavia and the rest of northern Europe reached a high point. Contacts between northern and southern Scandinavia, with the Baltic and with the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms were intensive, but the Frankish littoral area was hostile.

In the 8th century the Franks expanded northward, up to the Elbe and threatened the Danes. This expansion implied ideological and military conflict, also concerning the control of the emporia on the North Sea. A hypothesis of Myhre is that perhaps this situation on the continent led the Norwegians to explore contacts around the northern North Sea (Myhre 2000, 44). In the meantime, the Danes remained the main power of Scandinavia, exercising control over other Scandinavian kings.

But in the 9th century they met a decline probably due to internal fights for power. The system of overlordship collapsed (Hedeager 1992, 297).
"
Source: http://www.academia.edu/919972/The_Migration_...edbro_Find

As for overpopulation I elaborated in my former post in this thread (Note: which is AFTER your reply to me). All of Norway 8-12 different greater Kingdoms (some actually say up to 30 in all, but that is in my perhaps wrong opinion probably including small Jarldoms, probably already under a Kingdom) had in all approximate 80.000 people (and some of these areas were probably Danish, like the Oslo area). So a couple of thousands each generation could fill these North Atlantic areas, as they did (since people has to also stay at home to boost Norwegian numbers there, see below for middle ages).
But Norway and the North Atlantic Islands were very thinly populated compared to England and Denmark.
Denmark had at least a 5:1 population compared to Norway, though it is much smaller.

Some extra data by put it in perspective:
The 1200 AD estimates is ~200.000 for Norway and ~1 mil for Denmark by the way and then you have a real population growth boost from 1200-1349 until the plague hits.
After the plague you have ~150.000 left in Norway (only 2,5 times that of Iceland with now ~60.000 that totally avoided the plague this time) and ~500.000 left in Denmark.
NB: Again very tentative data, but it explains why Scandinavian power hits a real downer historically.

I know Alcuin was at Charlemagne court, which I also stated in an earlier post. My point was that he was writing "our lord" concerning him AND Higbald indicating that Higbald's lord ALSO was Charlemagne. Alcuin should have written "my lord", if Higbald's lord was Æthelred.
That could question who had really had authority over the Island and whether it was a legitimate target for the Danes in a war against Franks.
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Alan E




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PostPosted: Thu 28 Apr, 2016 2:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Niels Just Rasmussen wrote:
Distance from Western Jutland to Lindisfarne and distance from South-Western Norway to Lindisfarne is almost the same and it takes 24 hours in a small warship sailing at average speed from Western Jutland (630 km from Hardsyssel area) in a normal warship sailing 14 knots. It takes 22 hours from Stavanger, Norway. That is negligible. Its routine for Scandinavians sailors in this time period to cross open waters. Viking ships are made for that. They have been going to the Faroese Islands around this time and that forces you to open water sailing.

Slightly OT but do you have sources for that speed maintained in a viking longship? It is slightly more than the hull speed (max speed of a displacement ship , calculable as approx. 1.34 x square root of waterline length in feet) of a 100ft LWL ship. Whilst I agree that square sails don't always have to be set square and Viking ships were better sailboats than some authors have given credit for, the idea that they would regularly average their hull speed over a voyage during which wind (and tide) conditions must vary appears (to me at least) somewhat dubious.

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Niels Just Rasmussen




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PostPosted: Thu 28 Apr, 2016 8:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alan E wrote:
Niels Just Rasmussen wrote:
Distance from Western Jutland to Lindisfarne and distance from South-Western Norway to Lindisfarne is almost the same and it takes 24 hours in a small warship sailing at average speed from Western Jutland (630 km from Hardsyssel area) in a normal warship sailing 14 knots. It takes 22 hours from Stavanger, Norway. That is negligible. Its routine for Scandinavians sailors in this time period to cross open waters. Viking ships are made for that. They have been going to the Faroese Islands around this time and that forces you to open water sailing.

Slightly OT but do you have sources for that speed maintained in a viking longship? It is slightly more than the hull speed (max speed of a displacement ship , calculable as approx. 1.34 x square root of waterline length in feet) of a 100ft LWL ship. Whilst I agree that square sails don't always have to be set square and Viking ships were better sailboats than some authors have given credit for, the idea that they would regularly average their hull speed over a voyage during which wind (and tide) conditions must vary appears (to me at least) somewhat dubious.


You are very right. Constantly favourable conditions for 24 hours would be rare.

What I had found in the net so far said that basically all viking ships had a cruising speed in lower wind conditions around 5 knots. When the wind picks up then the viking ship will "plane" (or what you call it in English) and lift up and increase in speed, so it really how good the ship can do this that will influence the top speed. At some point the wind becomes to strong so you have to take the sail down.

The cargo-viking ship (a knarr) like the Skuldelev 1 from Roskilde was reported by Max Winner in 1986.
Source: Carl Harding Sørensen (1990/1996). Vikingernes Togter (2nd Ed.), page 39-43.
They had build an exact copy of Skuldelev 1 ("Saga Siglar") and tested it in Ålesund Fjord, Norway. It had a top speed around 13 knots with the wind coming in obliquely from behind (sadly not any mention of at what wind speed that was); but since a knarr is more round; the speed of slender warships should be considerably faster (one should think because of a more streamlined hull and less drag).

The Knarr could without problems tack (Danish "krydse") against the wind and even under gale conditions it hardly took in any water. They made a round-the-world voyage and even rode out a storm/hurricane between Greenland and Labrador with the technique of having the wind in from behind on a bare rig (having been forced to strip the sail under these conditions) without having suffered any injuries to the ship (!). So perhaps it is from the transition from gale to storm where you have to take down the sail.

This site from the Vikingship museum in Roskilde shows that they are currently testing replica warships scientifically for all kinds of maritime maneuvers. These data are apparently not published yet.
Source: http://www.vikingeskibsmuseet.dk/fagligt/baad...sejladser/

"Havhingsten fra Glendalough" (copy of the big 30 meter long Skuldelev 2 warship from Roskilde) travelled to Ireland in 2006.
Apparently the first went from Roskilde, Denmark to Kristianstad, Norway under favourable wind conditions which took 34 hours. The top speed was 12 knots on that stretch.
Then it seemed the ship had real troubles handling gales with damages to the ship (rorstroppen => the leather strap holding the upper part of the oar close to the ship) and the same bad weather conditions on the return trip from Dublin home to Denmark with most of the crew were out of action by seasickness in the Celtic Sea (some so critically bad they had to be taking of the ship). So maybe warships in general can't handle gale+ conditions as Havhingsten at this point had to pump out 18.000 liters of water during 21 hours OR it is just the really big "show" warships.
So this is the info from wikipedia. Source: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havhingsten_fra_Glendalough

So I had found this site (before I made this extra research on your question), that said that the overall journey of Havhingsten the cruising speed was 5,5 knots and the top speed was 15-20 knots.
Source: http://www.vikingdenmark.com/viking-ships-roskilde-denmark.html

EDIT: Found this info chart on "Havhingsten".
States here that top speed is ~17 knots and average speed as high as ~6-8 knots, but slow rowing speed. NB: "Anslået" means by "eye-calculation", not measures by instruments.
Skuldelev 2 (Havhingsten):
Byggeår: 2004
Længde: 29.30 meter (96 fod)
Bredde: 3.80 meter (12 fod)
Dybde/dybgang: 0.95 meter (3 fod)
Vægt: 8.30 tons
Yderligere informationer: Sejlareal: 112 m2
Årer: 60
Deplacement, sejlklar: 25 tons
Besætning: 60-70 mand
Anslået gennemsnitsfart for sejl: 6-8 knob
Anslået topfart for sejl: 17 knob
Anslået gennemsnitsfart for årer: 2,5 knob
Anslået topfart for årer: 4,2 knob
Source: http://www.vikingeskibsmuseet.dk/fagligt/baad...37c6814f6e

So the Viking Ship Museum in Roskilde are still conducting experiments. Now with a copy of the Skuldelev 5 smaller warship. With only 0,6 meters draft/draught, this ship is perfect for raiding. So it is the data for this ship that is probably the most relevant for the discussion.
The replica is called "Helge Ask", that also displays a cruising speed at 5-6 knots (as apparently all viking ships before they "plane").
This site say that "Helge Ask" can tack with a speed of 3-5 knots directly against the wind.
Source: http://www.helgeask.dk/skibet-helge-ask/sejla...e-ask.html
Under favourable conditions the top speed is around 15 knots (not stated at what wind speed).
Rowing speed is 5,4 knots.
Gives the interesting information that you can row and have sail at the same time. So rowing ensures that you can always maintain a minimum speed of 5 knots.

So I agree that 14 knots is too high (I took it based on the info that top speed was 15-20).

When conducting an attack the ship is very crowded, so you would likely wait in port until you have right conditions to reach your wanted destination fast. Hitting a storm and getting into trouble would be a disaster going out on a raid - you need to arrive fresh - and also arriving at the right destination. You don't have room for much provisions, so reaching the target fast could also be important for that reason. [Food for one day on the boat and then raid for provisions on arrival].

So favourable winds making for 10 knots (?) with wind aft seems way more reasonable than 14 knots. Though with perfect conditions 15 knots is possible, but very unlikely all the way. You can also reasonable foretell the wind for a day, but rarely more.
So when you launch from Denmark to an attack on England you would likely wait for a strong Eastern wind (Beaufort scale 5-6 perhaps? - as gales could damage a warship like Havhingsten, whereas a knarr would have no problems).

After the raid you could easily get lucky that the wind shift back to the usual western wind pattern or you can row or tack against the wind home. Arriving back at home tired is less of a problem than the way around. Average probably around 5 knots when going home. If the wind turned to west, then somewhat faster.

How crowded a small viking warship is would be influencing, what kind of stuff you want to raid for.
Small high-prized valuables rather than things taking up space (you can exchange some stuff with the ballast, but it has to be as compact and heavy as the stones).

Skuldelev 5 (Helge Ask): Small viking warship:
17,5 meter long.
2,5 meter wide.
Draught: 1 meter with oar; when beaching the oar can be lifted so the draught is only 0,6 meter.
Quadratic Sail: 48 square meter area
Boat-weight; 1700 kg (that is really light).
Ballast: 750 kg stones.
Total weight with rigging and other equipment: ~3 tons.
Oars: 26 (in 13 pairs).
Crew: ~30
Total weight of crew: ~2,6 tons
Source: http://www.helgeask.dk/skibet-helge-ask/om-langskibet.html
That is really crowded, so not room for much and the crew almost weight as much as the fully rigged ship with ballast. With every one having to stash mail and weapons on the ship (likely wrapped so they don't get saltwater on them), then when in gear they would probably weight the same as the ship.

So from West Jutland (Ringkøbing) to Lindisfarne (~ 630 km) would be 22,5 hours at 15 knots, 34 hours at 10 knots and 68 hours at 5 knots.
From South-Western Norway (Stavanger) to Lindisfarne (~ 580 km) would be 21 hours at 15 knots, 31,5 hour at 10 knots and 62,5 hour at 5 knots.

With the lack of space for food and freshwater it does seem logical to wait for good win conditions on the way out to the attack and then raid (get costly valuables and food) and slug it home rowing or tacking.

Still the effort is basically more or less the same whether you attack from western Jutland, Denmark or South-western Norway.

PS: Weirdly enough the top speed of the Knarr (13 knots) as almost the same as the warships (15, 17 knots), perhaps because it can keep the sail at much higher wind speeds?
Especially the very slender warships I would have thought would reach 20 knots (especially if the Knarr can reach 13 knots - ~50% faster), so I set 14 knots as an average speed in good conditions when sailing over the North Sea from the perceived knowledge that 20 knots were the maximum speed. That seems clearly to have been to high. That a small warship only have a top speed of 15 knots, just two knots more than a cargo-type "knarr" really perplexes me?!
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Pedro Paulo Gaião




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PostPosted: Fri 29 Apr, 2016 4:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Niels Just Rasmussen wrote:
National geographic and its "slavery" is not based on any reality we know of: People have generally a totally flawed view on viking society.

Legal text are seemingly clear about thralls in Scandinavia and they are servants and have rights (their own money).
People might object that everyone could kill a thrall - but everyone could kill everyone in viking society. It was legal to conduct a blood feud against the King if you wanted, until feuding families settled it with blood-money.
The difference is just that killing a Thrall will not start a blood feud (but usually a payment of compensation), whereas killing a Free Man will.


In this case how to explain the violently broken young women's skulls at viking's tombs and the bad treatment that many might call humiliating regarding these "slaves"?
NatGeo wrote:
Life for thralls was clearly harsh. A 14th-century poem—the original likely dates from the end of the Viking era—gives an idea of how Vikings saw their slaves. Among their names were Bastard, Sluggard, Stumpy, Stinker, and Lout.


Niels Just Rasmussen wrote:
Killing is acceptable, since if everyone knows who did it then the offended family can retain its honour by having blood revenge. If you can't conduct vengeance (because of murder) you are an "unmanly man" (argr/ragr) like something conducting passive homosexuality or doing female magic (seidr). So until the murderer can be found it leaves the offended family dishonoured.


They had some definition of "men's magic"? Active homosexuality was not frowned upon?


Quote:
The blood revenge was a matter between two families, but if it escalated a third party could take the matter to the "Ting" so a settlement could be established by force there. Either one party could be forced to pay blood-money or with one family's member getting exiled, which all depended at the voting. The law was "democratic" - each case depended on the voting of the free men assembled. The law is political. So having a lot of (powerful) friends mattered in all law cases. Jarls would off course expect that the Free-Men living in his territory would vote as him (that is making noise by banging their shields).


But financial compensation and exile were an imminent feud's consequence or a more peaceful alternative to it? I mean, if someone insulted your family with a murder, you could seek revenge by blood as just as you could legally appeal for financial compensation/exile of the murderer's clan?

Quote:
So Thralls have rights (they are humans, but socially humans without kin), Niddings have no right as they are no longer regarded as being human. Given help or shelter to a Nidding would make you a Nidding as well.


You could "enslave" a nidding? Prisoners taken in raids and maintained by a certain viking chief would be classified as thralls or niddings? If they were thralls, this means that they could get the freedom someday?

Quote:
If Hans Larsen kills Morten Pedersen in Denmark, then his brother Torben Pedersen can kill Hans Larsen's second cousin Jens on Iceland. Everyone within the two families were fair game in a blood-feud - (but if you kill a wife, she is actually member of a third family and her father, brothers and cousins will then avenge her).

Torben and Jens might have been friends for decades, but as soon Torben hears about the blood-feud his honour dictates that he must do the deed. Then he can sob and cry (in secret) for his dear friend afterwards. Blood-feuds is DUTY to uphold HONOUR, nothing to do with personal feelings.


One could not release any kind of "forgiveness" by an appeal of a member who belongs to the family that made such offense? Even if he compensate the family offended with gold or land?

Quote:
At the Ting you had a sacred peace (the place was ritually demarcated), so during the Ting meet it was illegal to attack another with your weapons and if you did you would became a Nidding. But you could insult a person and thus cause a ritual duel to be conducted at the Ting. You had apparently "professional duelists" on Iceland at least, that went to Ting meetings just to provoke duels as if a person insulted didn't call for duel he would be dishonoured and marked as an unmanly man! Yeah being a Free Man is dangerous, if people smells weakness you are toast. Every time you go to Ting, you could be unlucky having a professional duelist insulting you, so you better have a reputation of being an excellent fighter. These guys could be hired by one farmer to take another out at the Ting (sneaky!).


When you insult someone, it is necessarily you that have to take part in the duel or you could a ask family's member, a retainer or even a hired duelist to fight for you in these duels? By killing all the representatives of a clan in a ritual duel, you could claim your possessions to you?

Quote:
All noblemen hunted, so they were all proficient with bows. Also apparently every Scandinavian King, Jarl or Herremand with respect for himself (at least in Norway) would have a Sami huntsmen/archer as one of his retainers. He would almost always just be call "Finn" (meaning Sami).


Sammis technically shouldn't be nomads who lived in the most inhospitable parts of northern Scandinavia? They had contact with the Norse in the Viking Age?
------------------------
Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote:
Niels Just Rasmussen wrote:
In Scandinavia the Jarls was the highest social group and Kings were elected at Ting-places among these families that often traced their families back to aesir, vanir or jötnar (giants). The Scandinavian monarchy was an election monarchy (in Denmark election monarchy first ended in 1660). Jarls, Herremænd and Free-men could vote, but of course it was a vote by showing martial strength. The winner was the loudest banging of shield among the people present of the Ting (= greatest number of supporting soldiers present). As Denmark has 4 different Lands-Ting you could in theory have 4 different King elected in Denmark forcing them to share (or actually as everyone could guess fight for being last man standing).


I do not know if I trully understand what you said: there would be a great battle between voters of opposite parties and whoever won would elect their candidate? It seems a great blood bath for a royal election.


No, each warrior just banged a spear or sword against his own shield.


It was also common among the Celts of the British Isles, no?
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Niels Just Rasmussen




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PostPosted: Fri 29 Apr, 2016 9:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pedro: About mutilated bodies possibly sacrificed in viking graves:

The thing is that even high status men and women can also have seemingly mutilated bodies. The state of the bones can often make it hard whether it was done pre- or postmortem.
We don't know whether these persons are even thralls, we haven't found ant rune inscriptions saying so around their necks.

Ibn Fadlan tells us about the Rus Volga burial, that the woman being raped and sacrificed under the Rus burial at the Volga volunteered. People today don't believe that (because of how modern people think, so they assume that its was a thrall that have been forced). Its not even clear if the woman is a thrall or a wife.
Ibn Rustah tells of another burial where the wife of the diseased is buried alive in the mound with her husband. So clearly here she is not a thrall at all.
Could be like the burnings of wives in India (Sati) before the English banned it, but then the person is NOT a thrall.
In many graves it can be very hard to tell the relationship between those in the grave. You do occasionally find people apparently bound before killed in the grave; but we actually don't know if they are thralls (see below).
You know from mythology that Kings were also occasionally sacrificed. In myth Swedish Kings actually specifically be being drowned in mead or beer. King Vikar is speared and hung simultaneously by Starkadr (a double Odin killing, as Odin also was hung and speared on the world tree).
Saxo writes this about the Christian Danish King Olaf Hunger, who died under vague circumstances in 1095.
"Saxo Grammaticus writes that he "willingly gave himself to loose the land of its bad luck and begged that all of it (guilt) would fall upon his head alone. So offered he his life for his countrymen."[5]
He is the only Danish monarch whose burial site is not known. It has been postulated that his body was divided among the regions of Denmark as a kind of scapegoat which was to take away the blood guilt of Denmark and restore it to its previous fortunes."
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olaf_I_of_Denmark
So according to Saxo the King Olaf Hunger willingly gave himself to sacrifice?, to make the land prosper again.

Modern western people have a hard time believing that, but some people are actually blowing themselves up with bombs and Christians wanted to be martyrs so much in the early church you had some actually volunteered to be eaten at the circus. Dying for the faith mattered to them more than life. The lure of the afterlife can be strong in a hard world.

An example if what seem to be a clear case that actually isn't, when you know the endless viking variations in burials:

Source: http://naukawpolsce.pap.pl/Data/Thumbs/_plugi...892967.jpg

So who is who in this grave?? (Stengade grave FII, Denmark): Clothes, hair & beards and rope are unknown, so notice positioning in the grave.
The guy on the left is not mutilated and the guy on the right is seemingly sacrificed with his head chopped off and with hands and legs in a positions in the grave that makes it very likely he was bound these places. Clear cut?

Yet, they spear actually have the blade over the right mans torso. It would make more sense that he was the owner of the weapon as the guy on the left only has it across the legs (it is presumed since only the spearhead survives).
Strangely the weapon is a winged Anglo-Saxon spear type not so common in Denmark.

The guy on the left is 1.93 cm tall and ~25 years old. So from his height alone he probably was a man of some standing (being well fed in childhood).
The guy on the right is 1.74 cm tall and 30-35 years old (still above standard viking age height in Denmark for the time).
So the classic description is nobleman buried with thrall. But that is just an assumption.
Source: http://www.abdn.ac.uk/skaldic/db.php?id=22109...;table=mss

A) If the guy on the left is a nobleman the guy on the right could be a warrior and part of his "Hird". That would explain that the spearhead is across his chest and also explain the foreign weaponry. A King or Jarls hird would be comprised of elite warriors from all over the Viking world. So is the guy on the right an Anglo-Saxon warrior?

If so why is he bound and beheaded? The beheading is actually very interesting as it is described in sagas to be a way to avoid/prevent the person to be a Draugr/Aptrgangr that walk up from the grave. This would be dangerous if the man was a noted warrior! If the guy was a thrall you could just kill him, no need for beheading him (just strangle him with a rope instead).
Sometimes we hear descriptions in the sagas, that the head is placed behind the ass of the dead; but it is also clear that chopping the head of in itself is enough to kill the un-dead.

B) The beheading and the binding of the guy on the right could have been done postmortem. So for the reasons above avoid having a dangerous warrior running around un-dead.
So in theory the guy on the right could have died and people decapitated him and bound him to avoid having him rise as an un-dead. (Would be a good precaution as he then is buried away from home and would be restless).

C) Neither were sacrificed. They both died to some unknown episode and some connection between them made sure they were buried in the same grave. One was regarded as a possible dangerous undead, the other not.

D) Then it could be as the classical view is a nobleman on the left and a thrall on the right, but we can't say from bones whether they volunteered-or-not to follow their master into the grave. The guy on the right could also in theory be a prisoner-of-war, so not a thrall either (remember if he has kin somewhere they would make blood-revenge if he died).
Thralls do not have kin (socially) to conduct blood revenge.

E) The tall guy on the left could be a thrall (only his height makes the case he is not as he lack grave goods which is noteworthy) and the guy with the spear his owner. A man so dangerous he has to be bound and decapitated in death.
I feel this is unlikely, but still its possible.

Yet really think about it. Did you want to spend your time in Hel (or simply lived in the burial chamber - death conceptions vary from place to place in Scandinavia) until Ragnarok with a thrall or prisoner-of-war who was forced-sacrificed to follow you; or a dearly loved thrall that volunteered to live with you? Also remember that most viking graves only contain 1 body, even for some people seemingly of very high status. It was absolutely not the norm to have other people in the grave with you. It actually strengthens the volunteering part (being rare), whereas it if was a forced sacrifice of a thrall one would expect double (and with even more people) graves to be a lot more numerous

As almost every viking grave is different from the next one have to be extremely careful to jump to any conclusions of what really happened.
If a person entered a Catholic Church not knowing anything about it, wouldn't the immediately think that "They have body parts of sacrificed slaves in containers" to which they still conduct rituals over? Catholics would "know" they were the bodies of Saints. Who the bones in actuality belongs to is in many cases a big mystery. Some saint bones are clearly not from the age they claim to be. So how did you get these bones? Your local dead monks? Dug up from the local cemetery?

So Kings could be sacrificed - some might volunteer, some not?
Free people could be sacrificed - some might volunteer, some not?
Thralls could be sacrificed - some might volunteer, some not?
Prisoners-of-war was definitely sacrificed (in bogs in the Iron Age) and they didn't volunteer, but less clear in the Viking Age. Ransomed instead or just executed and left to "feed the ravens" on the battlefield or some other place - drowned in the sea or a lake and left there? If so then we won't find them in graves.
So it is really hard to easily give a quick judgement of what happened in these graves.

The Rigthula (preserved in one 14th century manuscript - dating of the original composition is still a hot scientific topic) clearly gives three different classes of people where the name describes how they look and how their life would be. Yes thralls lives are hard; yet that doesn't mean they were sacrificed "en masse in graves". Being an industrial worker in 1840's Manchester and you would probably look the same and be regarded the same by the nobility. Doesn't mean they were sacrificed in graves either.

It is important to remember that Rigthula is a mythological poem. What is really interesting about it is the age descriptions. The Thralls are the oldest family, the Karl's family are younger and the Jarls family the youngest and the youngest son of Jarl will be King.
Is this a successions of conquest by different people then ruler over others OR that being youngest is just a positive thing (Classical Romans on the contrary hated "new" things, so everything old was good) -> if a succession of conquests, then it is from an Indo-European perspective a mythological parallel to the different invasions of Ireland, which brings in new ruling peoples.

Was the life of a thrall hard? Definitely, but depending on who owned you and what kind of thrall you were. As in the Roman Empire you would have different social classes of thralls. "Bryti" were clearly higher status thralls.
For some it would have been hell, for other not. Life was hard for basically everybody in the Viking Age, also the farm owners - only the very rich could afford not working themselves.

In the viking world "manly men" are piercers (swords, spears and softer things) and "manly men" are thus piercing others.
An "unmanly" man is at the receiving end. Being filled instead of filling others.
Apparently "seidr" magic was so "female" and such a stigma for a man that you wonder where their staff were inserted when the made their trance-voyages to see the future (essentially something "shamanistic"). Again exact method of seidr varied from family to family. Seid-women seems like Berserkers also to often be running in families, mother to daughter (and son occasionally?).
Later witches are said to ride their brooms - probably later depictions of witches got the angle of the broom all wrong when the witches rode it. "Seidr" was likely done on a raised platform publicly, so it is perhaps much more "charming" with a woman than a man doing it? The staff was likely smeared with special substances to provoke hallucinogenic effects and to work then it has to be inserted somewhere.
Sex was not a taboo for vikings.

Witchcraft report from 1324:
"In rifleing the closet of the ladie, they found a pipe of oyntment, wherewith she greased a staffe, upon which she ambled and galloped through thick and thin when and in what matter she listed".
Source: https://books.google.dk/books?id=YS-T8dfZ5hMC&pg=PA197&lpg=PA197&dq=In+rifleing+the+closet+of+the+ladie,+they+found+a+pipe+of+oyntment,+wherewith+she+greased+a+staffe,+upon+which+she+ambled+and+galloped+through+thick+and+thin.&source=bl&ots=h6lXcuKSfA&sig=Ew19Jyy9fqf8Z8ZwWdxdjKxUyWM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xXJyUquWFebksATF2oGwBA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=In%20rifleing%20the%20closet%20of%20the%20ladie%2C%20they%20found%20a%20pipe%20of%20oyntment%2C%20wherewith%20she%20greased%20a%20staffe%2C%20upon%20which%20she%20ambled%20and%20galloped%20through%20thick%20and%20thin.&f=false

In Scandinavia the worst thing you could call a man was argr/ragr -> an unmanly man - passive (perverse) homosexual receiver.
Being unmanly = ergi.
You must kill the offender instantly OR you make his word true by your passive inaction.

Here is a famous example from Iceland.
"Nine children
has the Bishop born
Thorvald is father
of them all
".
Danish translated version: http://denstoredanske.dk/Nordisk_Mytologi/Lit...genrer/nid

This was a "nid-verse" about Bishop Frederick and his friend Thorvald. The two first Christian missionaries on Iceland - apparently spending a lot of time together.
So it is important to know that it is the Bishop being the one really humiliated, Thorvald much less so (only by bad association).
It is Thorvald that make the revenge and killing the two men responsible. He is a real "piercing manly man" proving that he is clearly not on anyones receiving end, by this revenge killing.
Bishop Frederick does not take active revenge, so you wonder what people thought about him afterwards? In the Scandinavian worldview he made the accusation true.

Blood revenge was normally a private matter between two families. They could continue it or settle it of their own.
But if it dragged out and started to hurt other people's businesses then a third party could take it to the Ting to force an end to it.
One party could take a killing to the Ting directly if there was a killing, but that was not very manly and you would lose honour (yours and your family's) of being so afraid and cowardly you didn't even kill one person from the other family in revenge.
It would be dangerous, people would smell weakness and perhaps at the Ting some "professional duelist" would insult you to get a duel and if you also tried to settle, then a Nid-verse accusing you of passive homosexuality could be created and then you would really be trouble if you stayed passive through that as well. All help from allied families would likely disappear immediately as non one would be friends with such unmanly men. Even your own family would shun you.
It's called Nid-verse as by proving the accusation true by your inaction you would de facto fall to the status of Nidding (one everyone could kill without retaliation). Giving any kind of help to a Nidding (one that has commited a crime) would make you a Nidding yourself: But an unmanly Nidding others could probably take that person as their bitch and kill them, without society giving a damn.
[Male Seidr dressed as females in pagan times were possibly more accepted as their "gender" would be female; but into Christian times were gender and sex becomes one, they are not accepted any more].

"Respect" was the only defense you had in this world. Forgiveness smells of being cowardly and fearful.

Settlements could happen fast if the two families actually was on good and friendly terms - 1 killing each and done - an unfortunate hothead in our family and you showed yourself manly in return. Otherwise a family could show goodwill that we clearly state that one of our family member is utterly moronic: We send him far away the next many years and pay you a good sum of money; then the offended family might accept without retaliation (especially if that family is not so strong or they are on friendly relations to start with). They have the right to settle it among themselves as a private matter.

If the two families disliked or hated each other to start with - oh boy it would get bloody.

On Iceland in Christian times it becomes Illegal to make Nid-verses as it was the cause of much unrest (probably by professional duelists? or just general trouble makers). In Christian times killings are probably taken faster to the Ting than it would have in pagan times; but you still see wild blood-feuds between some families.

Sami people seems to have two very different lifestyles and with all likelihood being two old very different people partly now merged together, where one of them have changed language-group (most likely the Norwegian group?!). They arrived in the stone age from two different areas. The Norwegian fishers probably going up along the Atlantic coastline as the ice retreated and the hunter-gatherers going west from modern Northern Russia (?) following reindeers to hunt arriving later.
Coastal Norwegian Sami were fishermen, whereas Inland Sami and a people called Kvens were apparently hunter/gatherers (the reindeer herds of the Sami's today seems to only really take off in the medieval period). Todays Sami's on the Russian Kola peninsula are the last little remnant of Sami's who apparently are still living as nomadic hunter/gatherers hunting reindeer (if you can even find them to check).
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