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Philip Dyer





Joined: 25 Jul 2013

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PostPosted: Thu 04 Feb, 2016 8:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric S wrote:
Philip Dyer wrote:
Okay, most Tulwars, pulwars, shamsirs.


A word or two added to a statement can make a difference in how accurate it is.

Not really to accurate
Quote:
you can still stab with Tulwars and shamsirs, just as long as you don't try to stab straight.


Much more accurate
Quote:
you can still stab with "most" Tulwars and shamsirs, just as long as you don't try to stab straight.


In this statement you are not stating a fact but a personal opinion, way more accurate unless you know for sure you have the facts to back up what you are stating.
Quote:
in my opinion, you can still stab with "most" Tulwars and shamsirs, just as long as you don't try to stab straight.


Philip Dyer wrote:
Matt Easton owns it avid antique sword collector and seller, he runs vintage sword shop in London and tours museums for his videos, scholagladatoria, and he made videos on how to thrust with highly curved Blades like Pulwars and Tulwars. #5: just by going by blade shape alone, that blade could easily be Japanese. Also, the first sword you post before the list in closer to curvature of the tulwar than the pulwar.


Philip, I could use a piece of broken glass to stab as well but its not the best thing to use, do you have a link to Matt Eastons videos showing him thrust with highly curved blades??? I do not see any similarity between the shashka (sword #5) and a Japanese sword blade, below is a comparison between the shashka and a 650 yr old Japanese tachi sword. I personally think the shamshir I showed is way more curved than the tulwar and is closer to the pulwar in shape. I have added some additional images showing various blade curves including a very long yatagan with a concave blade curve (top image).







Certainly, he quite a popular HEMA youtube celebrity. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2O7zw1Rn40 http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/antique-swords-uk/ Now, I secede this agrument to you because this is derailing the thread and detracting from a more important point.
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Scott S.




Location: Central North Carolina
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PostPosted: Thu 04 Feb, 2016 9:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Nicholas!

It seems like you have an excellent opportunity for some additional world-building here.

Let's say that the shells from the giant crabs are actually quite thin and delicate, but after some shaping and contouring, (perhaps some decorative or ritual artistry is also involved) the shells are then immersed in a particular mineral spring and left for a long time, perhaps even years. Imagine then that after a long process, the carapaces remain as thin and light as the original shell, but are now imbued with a strength like carbon nanotubes.

Other premises:
The longer the process, the more colorful, shiny or high-status the armor, thus being very distinctive on the battlefield.
Maybe microbial life is responsible for actually eating the shell and replacing it with their own super-secretions like a matrix or scaffold.
Perhaps the process of using this mineral spring is ultimately deadly to the armorsmiths, requiring great sacrifice and dedication to their craft.

There's a whole lot of lore you could weave into your shell armor no matter what you decide.

Best of luck in your writing endeavor Nicholas!
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Gregg Sobocinski




Location: Michigan
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Feb, 2016 7:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I like where Scott S. is going with this. How about a barnacle covered giant crab shell? Barnacles are hollow, strong, and grow in tight bunches.
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Martijn Wijnhoven




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 20 Aug 2008

Posts: 26

PostPosted: Sat 06 Feb, 2016 11:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nicholas,

I do not know if this has been already been suggested, but one of the closest things to shell armour I can think of is the Toltec ‘coraza de Tula’. It is made from actual pieces of shell, perforated at the edges and attached to a textile liner. Although it looks much like armour, which is also implied by the Spanish word coraza (i.e. cuirass), it is probably not. The garment was part of a sacrifice and is similar to those associated with pre-Columbian gods such as Tlaloc.

Here you will find a link to this wonderful artefact.
http://www.mna.inah.gob.mx/coleccion/pieza-4840/ficha-basica.html



Best wishes,
Martijn



 Attachment: 63.8 KB
Coraza de Tula.jpg

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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Sat 06 Feb, 2016 2:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looks like it may have served a similar purpose as the funerary stone armours in some Chinese tombs.


Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
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PostPosted: Sat 06 Feb, 2016 9:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Martijn Wijnhoven wrote:
Nicholas,

I do not know if this has been already been suggested, but one of the closest things to shell armour I can think of is the Toltec ‘coraza de Tula’. It is made from actual pieces of shell, perforated at the edges and attached to a textile liner. Although it looks much like armour, which is also implied by the Spanish word coraza (i.e. cuirass), it is probably not. The garment was part of a sacrifice and is similar to those associated with pre-Columbian gods such as Tlaloc.

Here you will find a link to this wonderful artefact.
http://www.mna.inah.gob.mx/coleccion/pieza-4840/ficha-basica.html



Best wishes,
Martijn


Good one Martijn, probably the closest thing to a crab shell armor that will be found.





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Eric S




Location: new orleans
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PostPosted: Mon 08 Feb, 2016 3:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Philip Dyer wrote:

Certainly, he quite a popular HEMA youtube celebrity. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2O7zw1Rn40 http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/antique-swords-uk/ Now, I secede this agrument to you because this is derailing the thread and detracting from a more important point.


Philip I think this particular thread will survive but thanks for the links, Matt obviously has a lot of knowledge on the use of various swords so I asked him a question which he answered quite quickly.

The tulwar Matt uses in the video is in my opinion only mildly curved as opposed to a radically curved sword.


Someone else asked Matt a related question about curved swords.


Now these have a radical curve.
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Neil Schiff




Location: Las Vegas, NV
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PostPosted: Tue 09 Feb, 2016 11:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Myceneans wore helmets made from strips or slices of boar's tusk. I would think the same might be possible for sea creature teeth, or if some of your shell materials were similar to teeth.

http://www.ancient.eu/image/2179/
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M Boyd




Location: Northern Midlands, Tasmania
Joined: 16 Aug 2013

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PostPosted: Wed 10 Feb, 2016 3:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've been thinking about the uses of kelp recently and thought that, dried out, it could make a very function lamellar.
The large stuff we get here on the east coast o Tasmania dries out to sheets about 15mm wide and 5-7mm thick. It can only be cut with a saw- no way will a knife get into it - nor can I be bent by hand. It's not brittle, though.
It can be soaked to reasonably soft and formed. I haven't done any experiments with it beyond that.
I should, though.
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Andrew Gill





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PostPosted: Wed 10 Feb, 2016 5:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric, Philip and others: regarding the curved swords, have you noticed that virtually all of those highly curved swords have the portion of the back closest to the tip (what I'd call the false edge) sharpened? Now I don't for a moment believe that this is for thrusting in any normal sense, but it does look as if it would make for nasty backhanded cuts (like the shielhau in the German longsword system), and as the point is leading due to the curve, the attack may well be almost like a "picking" action (I hope this is intelligible!) - not a thrust, but still a (probably slightly weaker) piercing attack. It would also be pretty nasty to parry such an attack, for a swordsman more used to straighter weapons. Is this plausible? Is there any evidence for or against this?

Then, to the original poster: (warning: lots of speculation to follow:) what I would personally take from the long debate about the merits of various sorts of armour is that the sort of weapon which it is expected to have to counter most often is an important factor. So what weapons do your civilization use? If they are in stone age, conventional swords are probably out of the question, unless stone swords can be enhanced in some (possibly magical) way. Macahuitls(mesoamerican obsidian-edged wooden sword-like weapons) are probably the closest you'll get. Otherwise, the only stone-age cutting weapons you're likely to see (again assuming no magical enhancement) are stone or bone axes and knives - probably short range backup weapons. Effective longer-range stabbing and piercing weapons for the battlefield, however, can be made comparatively easily with stone-age technology (spears, javelins, darts, arrows and so on). So too can blunt weapons, including spiked ones:(stone maces, wooden clubs, shark-toothed clubs, etc). So, for example, the highly developed (largely) stone-age civilizations of mesoamerica (stone-age at least in terms of military weapons), quilted armour is (and was) the way to go: it is easily made using textile-manufacturing technology, it is great against piercing missile weapons like bows and attatl darts (which the spanish state were most commonly used), decent against cutting weapons (which I suspect were rarer - wasn't the macahuitl a higher-status weapon?) and probably a lot better than nothing against clubbing attacks.

Edit: on re-reading I see you wrote the following:
Quote:
There are really only spears, clubs, axes, slings, and knives.

So you are already thinking along the lines I was suggesting.
I would add bows to that list personally - they can be made out of materials other than wood.
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Philip Dyer





Joined: 25 Jul 2013

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PostPosted: Wed 10 Feb, 2016 6:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Andrew Gill wrote:
Eric, Philip and others: regarding the curved swords, have you noticed that virtually all of those highly curved swords have the portion of the back closest to the tip (what I'd call the false edge) sharpened? Now I don't for a moment believe that this is for thrusting in any normal sense, but it does look as if it would make for nasty backhanded cuts (like the shielhau in the German longsword system), and as the point is leading due to the curve, the attack may well be almost like a "picking" action (I hope this is intelligible!) - not a thrust, but still a (probably slightly weaker) piercing attack. It would also be pretty nasty to parry such an attack, for a swordsman more used to straighter weapons. Is this plausible? Is there any evidence for or against this?

Then, to the original poster: (warning: lots of speculation to follow:) what I would personally take from the long debate about the merits of various sorts of armour is that the sort of weapon which it is expected to have to counter most often is an important factor. So what weapons do your civilization use? If they are in stone age, conventional swords are probably out of the question, unless stone swords can be enhanced in some (possibly magical) way. Macahuitls(mesoamerican obsidian-edged wooden sword-like weapons) are probably the closest you'll get. Otherwise, the only stone-age cutting weapons you're likely to see (again assuming no magical enhancement) are stone or bone axes and knives - probably short range backup weapons. Effective longer-range stabbing and piercing weapons for the battlefield, however, can be made comparatively easily with stone-age technology (spears, javelins, darts, arrows and so on). So too can blunt weapons, including spiked ones:(stone maces, wooden clubs, shark-toothed clubs, etc). So, for example, the highly developed (largely) stone-age civilizations of mesoamerica (stone-age at least in terms of military weapons), quilted armour is (and was) the way to go: it is easily made using textile-manufacturing technology, it is great against piercing missile weapons like bows and attatl darts (which the spanish state were most commonly used), decent against cutting weapons (which I suspect were rarer - wasn't the macahuitl a higher-status weapon?) and probably a lot better than nothing against clubbing attacks.

Edit: on re-reading I see you wrote the following:
Quote:
There are really only spears, clubs, axes, slings, and knives.

So you are already thinking along the lines I was suggesting.
I would add bows to that list personally - they can be made out of materials other than wood.

^I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. Why would it have a pointy point otherwise if there wasn't certain techniques that are either a pick attack or a curving thrust? If the bladesmith wanted the sword to be a pure cutter , they would've of round the tip section off along with making it so ridiculously curved.


Last edited by Philip Dyer on Wed 10 Feb, 2016 9:11 am; edited 2 times in total
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Graham Shearlaw





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PostPosted: Fri 19 Feb, 2016 3:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just thinking on weapons.
While stone limits you to fairly short and small blades but there northing stopping from have many close set blades form a long cutting edge.

There have been some quite large daggers made from stone.
Here's some Korean examples.

[url=PaleoPlanet has a good sub forum on Primitive Weapons]
http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/forums/102/M...pons[/url]
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Timo Nieminen




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PostPosted: Sat 20 Feb, 2016 1:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Based on Chinese precedent, those Korean daggers aren't weapons, but are imitations of bronze weapons, made in stone for funerary or other ceremonial use. Looking at them up-close in real life, they don't look sharp enough to cut. They'd be able to stab well enough against naked flesh, but a flaked point on the end of a stick would be better (because it would be much sharper) and would do much better against clothing. (And a flaked point is much cheaper, since it can be made very quickly; those polished stone daggers are serious conspicuous consumption.)
"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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Ken Speed





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PostPosted: Mon 22 Feb, 2016 1:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can visualize a method of making armor from crustacean shells in which the shells are pulverized and then combined with a resin or adhesive of some sort before being molded into armor. If it's fantasy you can do pretty much what you want!
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Nicholas Penner





Joined: 27 Jan 2016

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PostPosted: Wed 09 Mar, 2016 8:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ken Speed wrote:
I can visualize a method of making armor from crustacean shells in which the shells are pulverized and then combined with a resin or adhesive of some sort before being molded into armor. If it's fantasy you can do pretty much what you want!


Oh yes I know, but I don't get too out there, lol. I want this to be at least a little realistic.

I hadn't considered crushing up the shells and mixing it with other things to make armor. I might use that for later books when the people get more advanced. They do, however, coat the finished pieces in mixture of ground of sea shells and let it set for a while. It's kind of a super nutrient rich powder that can strengthen the material, but really only has spiritual, ritual uses for the armor.
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Shahril Dzulkifli




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PostPosted: Fri 11 Mar, 2016 5:56 am    Post subject: Armour made from sea shells and crustacean exoskeletons         Reply with quote

I cannot imagine if there is a real suit of armour made from both seashells and crustacean exoskeletons.
If so, it needs huge quantities of such materials.

“You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength”

- Marcus Aurelius
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