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Benjamin H. Abbott wrote:
Hi Neil! Thanks for the link to the latest version of your study. I used your numbers for the earlier post, assuming about 10lbs of arming clothes (including mail gussets and the like).

It's worth emphasizing that people who wore head-to-toe armor typically had horses to ride to the battlefield and also commonly fought mounted (this varied depending on the period and region). In the Hundred Years' War, an iconic conflict of where dismounted men-at-arms fought in large numbers on both sides, one line of strategic thought was that attacking constituted a decided disadvantage because of the disorder and fatigue that went along with advancing heavily armored infantry. That's only one historical period, and of course in other periods you had units that included some considerably armored troops who excelled at attacking (the Swiss, the Landsknechts, etc.). However, on the whole I think we sometimes go too far in downplaying the encumbrance of ancient/medieval/Renaissance armor. Various 15th- and 16th-century sources stress the importance of using heavily armored troops carefully so as not to exhaust them. You have this (in)famous study that found early 15th-century armor quite fatiguing for the four test subjects and notably more fatiguing than a backpack of the same weight because of the burden on the limbs. The test armor may not have been properly fitted and the test subjects may not have been properly trained, but the results still merit consideration and support the 15th-century English approach for forcing the French to attack whenever possible.

So, regardless of the exact weight, based on my reading of 15th/16th-century sources it's fair to say that head-to-toe and three-quarters harness was heavy. That's certainly how lots of period authors described it. Such kit provided considerable advantage (full armor granted nigh invulnerability from non-gunpowder weapons according to Fourquevaux) but likewise imposed limitations (primarily fatigue).

Also there is the fact that these soldiers lacked helicopters, cars, planes etc,all of which take means for soldier today doesn't have to do near as much walking than Medieval infantry did. So want can constituted heavy for Modern infranty was probably backbreaking heavy for Ancient infantry because they didn't have the luxury of being helicoptered into a combat zone. 90 percent of the they were probably walking to the engagement designation, repelling raids, and lugging around various equipment, not fighting in their armor. So, for just fighting in armor, based or many reactors experience and tons of others, I would say it is surprisingly light. If we had to walk where we want to slug it out, the armor worn would take it's toll. My helmet and avential I wear is almost the weight in the average of full cap and pie (20 pounds for my head protection to 50 pounds average) . I'm a shrimp and fight just fine wearing that wieght. If I had to march in the blazing sun wearing that helmet, I would probably pass out mid march. Has Sherman and Grant said, war is 90 percent boredom and ten percent hell.
This is an interesting conversation.

What about gauges? 1. How early did people use gauges of steel to measure armor?

2. What are some associated weights for gauges? It would depend on the type of armor, but can you more knowledgeable armor people tell if a helmet or a breastplate is made of 16 gauge steel, it is very heavy for example, or is it even a useful way to think about it?
J. Nicolaysen wrote:
This is an interesting conversation.

What about gauges? 1. How early did people use gauges of steel to measure armor?

2. What are some associated weights for gauges? It would depend on the type of armor, but can you more knowledgeable armor people tell if a helmet or a breastplate is made of 16 gauge steel, it is very heavy for example, or is it even a useful way to think about it?


Medieval armourers were very good about drawing plates out to particular thicknesses at different points of a piece, to both reduce weight and material used where it was not so critical, and to strengthen the armour where it was likely to be hit and suffer damage. Almost all medieval helmets, cuirasses and even most smaller components vary in thickness from the edges to the center, or sides to top, etc. The concept of uniform gauges of metal is a modern and industrial one when applied to armour.

-Gregory
Thanks! I do realize that gauge is a measure of thickness and not weight. I just wondered about the correlation between the two with armor types and function, and it's very interesting to hear about the historicity. I hadn't thought about the idea of drawing out the metal for different functions. I love armor, but I have almost no hands on experience with it.
Alan Williams describes 1.5-3mm as the (more-or-less) comfortable range of average breastplate thickness. 2-2.5mm seems most common for later 15th-century breastplates. Some 16th-century breastplate got much thickness to resist firearms, well over 3mm at times. Williams uses 3mm of fully hardened steel as the standard 16th-century pistol-proof armor. In sum, 16 gauge is not thick/heavy for a breastplate. Many historical breastplates were thicker, at least in the most important areas. This blog entry has solid numbers. Limb armor was typically significantly thinner.
Re: Armor Weight???
Michael Kelly wrote:
So I got into a conversation with someone who claims to hold a Bachelor of History with a focus on the Medieval era as well as being a SCA member (don't know why he threw that qualification in there). He claims that a real suit of armor is heavy and that he knows this because he's worn one. Now everything I've read says that armor was actually fairly light weighing around 35lbs. Am I full of crap?


I have a infantry set made from 1.2mm (18gu.) with the sallet being 1.3 mm thick (17 gu.) mild steel the front plate bing hammer harden and it is very, very light. One Sallet being 1.7mm thick ( I think 15 gu?) the visor is about 1.5 mm (16 gu.) or 1.4 mm thick also the helmet being big time hammer harden mild steel and it is not too bad at all on my head for hours being on.

Than I have a 1.2mm thick (18 gu.) fully harden High German Gothic 1050 or I think 1055 steel alloy plate and it is light and very amazing in every way, it also feel very good on the body. Most Armors seem to be light if you ask me, but some can be a bit heavier with thicker steel like my friend's infantry. His is 1.5 mm thick plate and sallet with the visor being 1.3 mm all mild hammer harden steel. I am going to get more of this German Gothic armor and replace my other mild steel parts for this knightly armor with fully harden 1055 steel alloy. Than get those mild steel ones case harden at least for my new infantry set.
J. Nicolaysen wrote:
Thanks! I do realize that gauge is a measure of thickness and not weight. I just wondered about the correlation between the two with armor types and function, and it's very interesting to hear about the historicity. I hadn't thought about the idea of drawing out the metal for different functions. I love armor, but I have almost no hands on experience with it.


Sheet metal gauges date to the 18th century, when rolling mills were first used. The early gauges look like they were based on wire gauges, which were already in use (and might originate from counting how many times the wire had passed through the draw plate).

Some sheet metal gauges (and there are many of them) are measures of weight, e.g., 16 gauge being 40 oz per square foot.

The modern sheet metal gauges mostly date to the late 19th century. Governments put some effort into trying to standardise the wide variety of gauges in use. Alas, different governments chose different standards, so while there were national standards, there weren't international standards.

Wire gauges: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_gauge
Sheet metal gauges: https://www.steelmarketupdate.com/resources/terminology/manufacturers-standard-gauge-history
A properly made European breastplate will not restrict one's breathing. Ergo, the reproduction breastplate was not shaped/fitted properly. Period. It wouldn't make any sense to make it that way. The old plate makers spent a century in development working it out with very fussy clients. If I could figure it out, so could they, and I'm simply copying what I've held in my own hands that they made. You might be surprised at how little experience most modern plate makers have with the real thing, and how little they understand it, even the ones who make stuff that is very pleasing to look at. Also, real limb armour runs about 0.035" thick, sometimes as high as ~0.050" in places. I'm working on some Maximilian stuff that has rather thick arms and legs compared to most of the other real stuff I've worked on. Speaking from personal experience, I would much rather wear a 50 lb. harness than a pack that heavy.
Most decent museum catalogs list weights of harnesses so that resource is easily got at. The Wallace Collection is very useful in this aspect.

Having just shot some tv stuff on armour yesterday I'll repeat what i said in one of the bits to camera. Armour was as thick or thin, light or heavy as it needed to be. It depends on the work being done, the ability of the wearer and the purse of whoever is paying for it.

The item was on H8 and jousting so i had my Master H harness out, that's a relatively heavy item. The guy wearing it was used to 15th cent Milanese field harness but not being a jouster had never worn this and was surprised by the change in centre of gravity, ability to do certain things. I can walk around in it fine for a bit but when mounted it comes into its own and you can do the job much better.
Mark Griffin wrote:
Most decent museum catalogs list weights of harnesses so that resource is easily got at. The Wallace Collection is very useful in this aspect.

Having just shot some tv stuff on armour yesterday I'll repeat what i said in one of the bits to camera. Armour was as thick or thin, light or heavy as it needed to be. It depends on the work being done, the ability of the wearer and the purse of whoever is paying for it.

The item was on H8 and jousting so i had my Master H harness out, that's a relatively heavy item. The guy wearing it was used to 15th cent Milanese field harness but not being a jouster had never worn this and was surprised by the change in centre of gravity, ability to do certain things. I can walk around in it fine for a bit but when mounted it comes into its own and you can do the job much better.

Just curious, since you mentioned museum visits and jousting armor. Would you say jousting harness without leg protection to be rare or common thing? I've always thought that jousting harness frequently discarded leg protection.
For what period of time? The Comté d'Auxerre's inventory lists items separated for joust, war, and tournament.

Quote:
1333, Jean II de Chalon, Count of Auxerre, 1292-1361.

Premièrement. Du harnais de jostes.
To begin. The harness for the Joust.

Troiz harnais de jambes touz entiers et uns cuissoz par dessus et ii heaumes.
Three leg harnesses, all complete, and one additional pair of cuisses, and 2 helms.


It could be that no leg armor was commonly worn if special jousting saddles with leg protection, or a barrier were used. A century later, inventories are distinguishing armor for the joust of war vs. the joust of peace, as well.
Mart Shearer wrote:
For what period of time? The Comté d'Auxerre's inventory lists items separated for joust, war, and tournament.

Quote:
1333, Jean II de Chalon, Count of Auxerre, 1292-1361.

Premièrement. Du harnais de jostes.
To begin. The harness for the Joust.

Troiz harnais de jambes touz entiers et uns cuissoz par dessus et ii heaumes.
Three leg harnesses, all complete, and one additional pair of cuisses, and 2 helms.


It could be that no leg armor was commonly worn if special jousting saddles with leg protection, or a barrier were used. A century later, inventories are distinguishing armor for the joust of war vs. the joust of peace, as well.

Just curious because I've seen alot of pictures of full suits of late medieval joust armor with no leg protection, so I was wondering how common that was.
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