Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Warfare in Medieval Wales and Ireland (1100-1450) Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3 
Author Message
Graham T. W.





Joined: 31 Oct 2015

Posts: 9

PostPosted: Thu 05 Nov, 2015 3:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Froissart's Chronicles also have a brief section where an Anglo-Irishman describes making war against the Irish, and the difficulties of fighting them in rough terrain:

Quote:
To tell you the truth, - Ireland is one of the worst countries to make war in, or to conquer; for there are such impenetrable and extensive forests, lakes, and bogs, there is no knowing how to pass them, and carry on war advantageously: it is so thinly inhabited, that, whenever the Irish please, they desert the towns, and take refuge in these forests, and live in huts made of boughs, like wild beasts; and whenever they perceive any parties advancing with hostile dispositions, and about to enter their country, they fly to such narrow passes, it is impossible to follow them.

When they find a favourable opportunity to attack their enemies to advantage, which frequently happens, from their knowledge of the country, they fail not to seize it; and no man at arms, be he ever so well mounted, can overtake them, so light are they of foot. Sometimes they leap from the ground behind a horseman, and embrace the rider (for they are very strong in their arms) so tightly, that he can no way get rid of them. The Irish have pointed knives; with broad blades, sharp on both sides like a dart-head, with which they kill their enemies; but they never consider them as dead until they have cut their throats like sheep, opened their bellies and taken out their hearts, which they carry off with them, and some say, who are well acquainted with their manners, that they devour them as delicious morsels. They never accept of ransom for their prisoners; and when they find they have not the advantage in any skirmishes, they instantly separate, and hide themselves in hedges, bushes, or holes under ground, so that they seem to disappear, no one knows whither.


The reference to broad-bladed knives is almost certainly referring to the scian, which several English authors (I believe both Dymmock and Moryson, neither of whom love the Irish much at all, refer to the deadliness of the scian) reference as being one of the deadlier weapons of the Irish, whom were apparently adept at dagger-fighting.
View user's profile Send private message
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,121

PostPosted: Thu 05 Nov, 2015 6:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen,

I think that might be the link between the Irish I am looking at with Scotland. IN Jean de Froissart he indicates the major issues the English have with this more fluid and fast form of warfare. I have heard many parts of Ireland were still heavily pastoral and could literally up and move to avoid English or other armies. Fighting is only one tool on the box of war I guess and perhaps not the most effective.

Graham,

Indeed they created it. It is called the Medieval Soldiers Database. I was doing my PhD with the person spearheading it Anne Curry. Hobelars do show up but less common than men-at-arms and archers. I have also found some Irish and Welsh so far in it and some really massive commissions of array. Just found two more today for Edward I to bring them to fight in Scotland. I find Edward Bruce's foray into Ireland very interesting. Sort of this idea of creating a coalition against the English.

Here is the database and the hobelar search
http://www.medievalsoldier.org/search_musterdb.php

Sounds like a very fascinating subject and period of study. I'd be interested in hearing your thesis once completed. I studied military history but there is a point it can be excessive as well though I am not sure I found it. I looked at organization and such specifically for the medieval period. I wonder if as the English are moving into eastern Ireland if there is not a push to strengthen or create Irish identity.

RPM
View user's profile Send private message
Stephen Curtin




Location: Cork, Ireland
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Likes: 110 pages
Reading list: 18 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,220

PostPosted: Fri 06 Nov, 2015 2:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah thanks for adding the Froissart reference Graham. I had been looking for that to add to this discussion.
Éirinn go Brách
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Setanta G





Joined: 20 Nov 2015

Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri 20 Nov, 2015 8:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I love it, I love it, I love it. Mo Gaeilgeoir, Mo Chairde fellow people into Gaelic Irish warfare stumbled across this by accident. Some great posts here sorry in advance if I double over anyone and sorry for lack of sources unforeseen circumstances.

Graham T.W and Kevin P Molloy are right most historians towards Gaelic Irish history are Anglophiles not just historians from abroad but Irish historians as well, the vast majority who believe history began from the Norman invasion and the Gaels were just a rabble bunch of Barbarians armed with pitch forks and slings, although I'd rather be a rabble barbarian than a square Norman :-). There is another large minority of Romantic Gaels as well mainly Irish who believe the Gaels mounted on a white steed rode into the sunset in their gold clad suit of armour almost Arthurian like. It's up to us 1% to spread the truth.

As we know Irish military history is full of inconsistencies, I think a couple of reasons for this.
1 we are slotting a thousand years of warfare into one section as it would of shifted and changed through time although I think in Ireland it remained quite similar, I like to think they were like the samurai holding onto ancient traditions but reality is it's the style of warfare best suited in Ireland and by updating weapons and armour you can keep up with the Jones's.
2 is variety as we know it was split into Kingdoms, big Kingdoms, Small Kingdoms, sub-Kingdoms and seed kingdoms. Some richer than others some more accessible some with conservative kings some with progressive kings, if the Tír Eoghain fielded an army you could expect 2,000 men maybe 200-500 from the Teaglacht bascally the house troops, Uí Neill Mòr and his clan, bodyguards, minor chiefs and retinue's and personal mercenaries armed with the best lances, spears, swords, axes and darts also with best armour whether made or bought to fit the style of warfare at hand. If you think this far fetched well it was an independent kingdom who could trade and make war like any other kingdom in Europe. These mobilise either as light-medium cavalry Marchsluag or medium-heavy infantry or both as the horseboys would be in and out with horse and weapons as needed. Flanking the enemy before doubling back handing horse and lance to horseboy who throws the king his axe and shield so he can lead a heavy infantry assault.
But also as he calls a Rising Out of all able bodied men we will see the bulk of the army made up of all sorts some would be veterans and a good king will know this possibly personally supplying them with good spears and shields, to add to that weapons and armour they salvaged from past wars,
You would also have the poorest of Kerns no armour maybe even no shield and a couple of darts as we do see this type of soldier referenced. The problem is all these footmen are lumped into one title Kerns but we would have undoubtedly had different degrees of Kern heavy infantry, light infantry and super light infantry. Also if the same king was only going raiding a neighbour for cows he might have opted to travel light for this excursion which dominated Gaelic life.

We must also remember there was clans who had designated roles doctors, clergy etc but also for horse and for spears the Uí Cinneide and Uí Mordha come to mind O' Kennedy's and O' More's who supplied fighting men for provincial kings later to have seem to become specialist Bonnacht clans for producing mercenaries.

A lesser kingdom like Mag Raghnaill's of Muintr Eolais or Uí Tuathaill of Fircullen MacRannells O'Tooles could possibly only muster a few dozen heavy armoured warriors while the rest would be poorly armoured but no less fierce as the English pointed out on numerous occasions the Gaels would be lightly armoured but hit on a charge like heavy infantry putting their full bodies into the charge sounds familiar with Roman accounts of charging Celts.

Also Kingdoms may have varied Thomond might of preferred a certain type of soldier or weapon to Tyrone and so on, on this topic I'm sure there is evidence of Thomond fielding Norman style Men-at-arms in a battle whether self produced or mercenaries no reason they might not of adopted this type of soldier for a while if at all.

Archery seems to be the main boggle in Gaelic Ireland but no reason archers would not of been mixed in with kern while skirmishing with dart, bow and arrow.

I didn't think there was any doubt that we had cavalry pre Norman invasion as Graham T.W pointed out plenty of sources to verify this and seems to have taken over from the chariot on and around the tim of the vikings although the chariot is a tricky one as our terrain hardly suited chariot but with half decent roads and in the summer just maybe also along with our heavily dense forest we must of had plains Magh in Irish is plain places like Magh Reine and Magh Brega may have been forest free plains or maybe just flat land.

Graham T.W I think Marchsluag would be riding solder or rider soldier or mounted soldier rather than horse soldier for direct translation. All Marc sounding words point towards a jockey or actions of a jockey rather than an actual horse.

Sorry for the all over the shop post excitement got the better of me.
Slán agus Beannacht. Go fèidir leis an bòthar ardù chun bualadh libh.
Look forward to more posts.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Setanta G





Joined: 20 Nov 2015

Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri 20 Nov, 2015 8:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just to add a reference off my head about cavalry, I think it's in the book of Loch Cè around 1166 Ruadrí ò Conchubhair raises his army at a festival after being crowned high king of Ireland like in a show of strength he musters his army it mentions a couple thousand cavalry.

Also to add a theory sources often say the Gaels couldn't stand up to a charge of heavy cavalry. In the early years especially of the Norman invasion lets say 150 Norman knights are charging an army of 1,000 Gaels outside the rising out the hard core of this army would probably only number 100. Once the knights drive over this core, the less experienced warriors i.e farmers by trade will panic causing mass exodus and an easy killing field for the knights but if the army was of larger numbers i.e larger core as well we often see the Normans shying from open battle and looking for an advantage in other ways.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Off-topic Talk > Warfare in Medieval Wales and Ireland (1100-1450)
Page 3 of 3 Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3 All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum