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Kevin Coleman M.
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 Posted: Tue 27 Oct, 2015 2:48 am Post subject: Historical failure |
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You know, I am a fan of Cornwell's books and had been patiently waiting for this series. I had hoped it would succeed where, say, Vikings failed (thinking of the helmets the troops from Wessex wear makes me insane.) Then I saw the promo shots of Uhtred with a sword sporting a pommel that would later end up on John Hammond's walking stick in Jurassic Park, and I said to myself "Aha..." I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised.
As long as we're doing a bit of thread hijacking, though, I may as well ask if anyone has seen the trailer for the 2015 MacBeth, and what the feeling on that is. I saw some back scabbards, but it does look pretty otherwise.
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Tom King
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| Posted: Tue 27 Oct, 2015 2:53 am Post subject: |
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| Sancar O. wrote: | I'm seizing to opportunity to shamelessly hijack this thread  to ask about another "historical" drama that caught my eye: The Bastard Executioner. I really have low tolerance when it comes to historical inaccuricies and anachronisms so I usually refrain from watching even a trailer when it comes to historical dramas unless they come highly recommended. Thus I have no idea if it is any good. I read that it is about a Welsh knight in 14th century. Have anyone watched it? Is it worth giving a try? |
It's entertaining and not as historically cringeworthy as many series. The arms are about right, the armor... not so much if you look at 1300s funerary effigies. But compared to most shows the modernish "crusades" through ~1200s maille (with spangenhelms) and tabards is at least visually ok and doesn't retract from the story like most Conanesque "medieval" programs. The fighting is ok... some(mostly) movie stage combat, some brutal ground fighting and sword+shield work but it is action packed and visually interesting. As of episode7 I've enjoyed watching it
Personally I feel like this BBC adaptation of the Saxon Tales is spitting in the face of Bernard Cornwell. For someone so dedicated to historical fiction such terrible costume choices and bastardizations of his own storylines... It must be hell to make money off ruining the legacy of your own books.
From memory "Uhtred's" sword and seaxe were forged by his ancestral fortress's swordsmith with fine pattern welded blades and adorned with plain steel hilts (weapons of warrior or somesuch) whose long blade he later affixed a silver christian cross to after a briefish spiritual and sexual relationship with a nun.
In the show right out the gate they go backscabbard fantasy sword+leather armor, gloss over most of Uhtred of bebbanburg's backstory, and make him a Conanesque fur wearing "barbarian" when we all know here the "vikings" were better equipped, better groomed, professional warriors wearing knee length tunics of bright cloth supplemented with spangenhelms and maille (if they could afford it) than most of their Islander foes.
also I haven't seen a spear in the entire show so far.
historicallty_innacurate.jpg
So far as a fan of Bernard Cornwell's novels I'm not impressed. The ITV rendition of The Sharpe's Chronicles was masterfully done and worth a watch; it's legacy makes this show look like a History channel direct to DVD HURRVIKINGS "Documentary"... or at least they share the same prophouse with the Hitler(or now the Alienz)Channel.
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Tom Wolfe
Location: East Anglia, England Joined: 10 Aug 2015
Posts: 83
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| Posted: Tue 27 Oct, 2015 8:02 am Post subject: Re: Historical failure |
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| Kevin Coleman M. wrote: |
As long as we're doing a bit of thread hijacking, though, I may as well ask if anyone has seen the trailer for the 2015 MacBeth, and what the feeling on that is. I saw some back scabbards, but it does look pretty otherwise. |
I just watched the trailer for this. It could be quite a good film. It could also be pony. The back scabbards are a nightmare. I blame the makers of the original Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles cartoons.
Collector of original 16th-17th century European arms and armour. Would like to collect earlier, but budget doesn't allow- yet!
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Sancar O.
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| Posted: Tue 27 Oct, 2015 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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Joshua and Tom, thank you for your kind answers. I was really hesitant to watch the show but I think I'll give it a try.
Isn't it ironic more you know about history,arms-armour etc., less you enjoy "historical"/"swashbuckler" dramas. My teenage self would love to see shows like Vikings, Three Musketeers etc.; now I can't even look at them. Ignorance is bliss, indeed. 
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Michael Beeching
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| Posted: Tue 27 Oct, 2015 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Pieter B. wrote: | | Aaron Hoard wrote: | | It kind of begs the question - how hard would it be to hire someone with a bit of knowledge about this time period to consult on what to use or not? |
Films have a director who has his own vision, a costume department with a Carte Blanche, a budget and a time constraint. Somewhere between all those seen and unseen forces historical accuracy gets lost.
There is also the fact that some period fashion items look odd and don't really appeal to modern audiences. Tights and a bowlcut would probably not look that good on an actor today. I believe Orlando Bloom wore tights in Lord of the Rings and in Henry V (Kenneth Branagh) there is something resembling Henry's actual haircut, however those are exceptions.
An overweight Henry VIII with a codpiece... yeah that's gonna end up with an X rating. |
I am quite ignorant when it comes to historical clothing, but when it comes to the Dark Ages, most of the depictions I've seen have been very modest. The clothing looks loose and comfortable, and frankly, practical. If my understanding, as I've just now written, is accurate, I don't see how a modern viewer would be so offended.
It is the high middle ages where fashion seems to become aloof in my perspective - whoever popularized the codpiece ought to have been drawn and quartered.
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Pieter B.
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| Posted: Tue 27 Oct, 2015 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Beeching wrote: | | Pieter B. wrote: | | Aaron Hoard wrote: | | It kind of begs the question - how hard would it be to hire someone with a bit of knowledge about this time period to consult on what to use or not? |
Films have a director who has his own vision, a costume department with a Carte Blanche, a budget and a time constraint. Somewhere between all those seen and unseen forces historical accuracy gets lost.
There is also the fact that some period fashion items look odd and don't really appeal to modern audiences. Tights and a bowlcut would probably not look that good on an actor today. I believe Orlando Bloom wore tights in Lord of the Rings and in Henry V (Kenneth Branagh) there is something resembling Henry's actual haircut, however those are exceptions.
An overweight Henry VIII with a codpiece... yeah that's gonna end up with an X rating. |
I am quite ignorant when it comes to historical clothing, but when it comes to the Dark Ages, most of the depictions I've seen have been very modest. The clothing looks loose and comfortable, and frankly, practical. If my understanding, as I've just now written, is accurate, I don't see how a modern viewer would be so offended.
It is the high middle ages where fashion seems to become aloof in my perspective - whoever popularized the codpiece ought to have been drawn and quartered. |
Dark Age clothing is usually a (wide) tunic affair for most men and women get the plain old dress.
Late medieval stuff has form fitting hose and more tailored upper body garments. It's not outrageous or anything but it might detract somewhat from the idea people have of the middle ages. In LotR they decided to give Aragon a leather/canvas raincoat, not something that was around during the dark ages but it looks okay-ish for non nitpicking people. The long raincoat conveys and image of a loner, a ranger, a cowboy, you name it.
Would this convey the same idea?
Could you envision a main character in Game of Thrones wearing that on screen all the time?
We want braveheart to wear a kilt and our peasants to be muddy! Horns and studded biking gear will suffice for anything before 1066
Of course there are exceptions
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Philip Dyer
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| Posted: Tue 27 Oct, 2015 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Michael Beeching wrote: | | Pieter B. wrote: | | Aaron Hoard wrote: | | It kind of begs the question - how hard would it be to hire someone with a bit of knowledge about this time period to consult on what to use or not? |
Films have a director who has his own vision, a costume department with a Carte Blanche, a budget and a time constraint. Somewhere between all those seen and unseen forces historical accuracy gets lost.
There is also the fact that some period fashion items look odd and don't really appeal to modern audiences. Tights and a bowlcut would probably not look that good on an actor today. I believe Orlando Bloom wore tights in Lord of the Rings and in Henry V (Kenneth Branagh) there is something resembling Henry's actual haircut, however those are exceptions.
An overweight Henry VIII with a codpiece... yeah that's gonna end up with an X rating. |
I am quite ignorant when it comes to historical clothing, but when it comes to the Dark Ages, most of the depictions I've seen have been very modest. The clothing looks loose and comfortable, and frankly, practical. If my understanding, as I've just now written, is accurate, I don't see how a modern viewer would be so offended.
It is the high middle ages where fashion seems to become aloof in my perspective - whoever popularized the codpiece ought to have been drawn and quartered. |
The codpiece, tights like robin Hood would wear, doublets, and so on, are Late Middle Age and Renaissance fashion and in military point of few, allowed plate armor to fit more comfortably on a man's body and be supported well. Also, it allowed people to constantly alleviate pain from STDs by stuffing the piece with herbs. It sorta hard to get away with arbitary fashion when you don't have to electronic machinery to quickly fabricate clothes.
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Roger Hooper
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| Posted: Tue 27 Oct, 2015 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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So when did men start to wear trousers, hose, or something related to that. (1300's?) Modern men have an aversion to males wearing something that looks like a dress, so I bet most movies set in the middle ages have them wearing some kind of pants, even if they know it's inaccurate.
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Philip Dyer
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| Posted: Tue 27 Oct, 2015 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Roger Hooper wrote: | | So when did men start to wear trousers, hose, or something related to that. (1300's?) Modern men have an aversion to males wearing something that looks like a dress, so I bet most movies set in the middle ages have them wearing some kind of pants, even if they know it's inaccurate. |
Single leg hosen (very rough estimate and someone please correct me if I'm wrong) and long loose boxer short garments (braies) become the clear majority bottom wear in Western European fashion around the end of the 1000's, with the early Medieval ages being more diverse in that respect and Western European fashion after 1400s being much more diverse. The Irish, Highland Scots,and Almogavers are noted for running around wearing naught but long tunics and cloaks.
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J.D. Crawford
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| Posted: Sun 14 Feb, 2016 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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I've just started watching this on netflix. I'm enjoying it. Other than Uhtred's annoying sword, I think its about as historically accurate as one can expect from a TV drama. It's head and shoulders above 90% of the crap on TV and it's in the wheelhouse. Having said that, IMHO it's not as good as the books and does not achieve the same level of dramatic tension as Vikings (despite all its faults).
What bothers me most is the choice of lead actor. Nothing against him; he's a good actor, looks good, and is pretty intense. Problem is that from the books I picture Uhtred as terrifying looking, 6'2'', 220 pound guy that you would take one look at and never dare cross. This actor looks about 5'10'', 165 lbs, and is a bit too pretty for my taste in action heros. He'd make a good LOR elf but I can't reconcile him with my picture of Uhtred. I guess that scarier version of Uhtred wouldn't go over so well with a general TV audience. To be fair, it's hard to think of many actors who could fit that bill, other than ex-wrestlers that can't act.
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Roger Hooper
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| Posted: Sun 14 Feb, 2016 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| J.D. Crawford wrote: | | I I guess that scarier version of Uhtred wouldn't go over so well with a general TV audience. To be fair, it's hard to think of many actors who could fit that bill, other than ex-wrestlers that can't act. |
Who would fit that bill? Most of the guys I can think of are too old now.
Vladimir Kulich? (from 13th Warrior}
Rutgar Hauer? - from his younger days. He was actually in one episode of this series as Ravn
Daniel Craig?
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Mart Shearer
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J.D. Crawford
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| Posted: Mon 15 Feb, 2016 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| Roger Hooper wrote: | | J.D. Crawford wrote: | | I I guess that scarier version of Uhtred wouldn't go over so well with a general TV audience. To be fair, it's hard to think of many actors who could fit that bill, other than ex-wrestlers that can't act. |
Who would fit that bill? Most of the guys I can think of are too old now.
Vladimir Kulich? (from 13th Warrior}
Rutgar Hauer? - from his younger days. He was actually in one episode of this series as Ravn
Daniel Craig? |
You're on the right track Roger. There just don't seem to be many actors out there like this these days, at least not being cast in leading roles. One thing I like about 'Vikings' is that they explore the scary, semi-psycho aspect of the characters, so maybe it's the production and direction as well.
PS (off topic) - never thought I'd say this, but I think Craig has Connery beat as best bond ever. He nails that sense that he's just one step away from being a menace to society.
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Pieter B.
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| Posted: Mon 15 Feb, 2016 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| Roger Hooper wrote: | | J.D. Crawford wrote: | | I I guess that scarier version of Uhtred wouldn't go over so well with a general TV audience. To be fair, it's hard to think of many actors who could fit that bill, other than ex-wrestlers that can't act. |
Who would fit that bill? Most of the guys I can think of are too old now.
Vladimir Kulich? (from 13th Warrior}
Rutgar Hauer? - from his younger days. He was actually in one episode of this series as Ravn
Daniel Craig? |
Rutger Hauer is 72 now, not sure if make up and prosthetic s can hide that. I don't recall him being very tall or buff either. Maybe the guy who played the Saxon leader in King Arthur (2004) is more qualified.
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Mon 15 Feb, 2016 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| Pieter B. wrote: | | Roger Hooper wrote: | | J.D. Crawford wrote: | | I I guess that scarier version of Uhtred wouldn't go over so well with a general TV audience. To be fair, it's hard to think of many actors who could fit that bill, other than ex-wrestlers that can't act. |
Who would fit that bill? Most of the guys I can think of are too old now.
Vladimir Kulich? (from 13th Warrior}
Rutgar Hauer? - from his younger days. He was actually in one episode of this series as Ravn
Daniel Craig? |
Rutger Hauer is 72 now, not sure if make up and prosthetic s can hide that. I don't recall him being very tall or buff either. Maybe the guy who played the Saxon leader in King Arthur (2004) is more qualified. |
That guy would look very good as a badass Viking or Saxon. What is his name?
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Sat 27 Feb, 2016 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Pieter B. wrote: | | Late medieval stuff has form fitting hose and more tailored upper body garments. It's not outrageous or anything but it might detract somewhat from the idea people have of the middle ages. In LotR they decided to give Aragon a leather/canvas raincoat, not something that was around during the dark ages but it looks okay-ish for non nitpicking people. The long raincoat conveys and image of a loner, a ranger, a cowboy, you name it. |
Most people don't notice it, but Viggo Mortensen-as-Aragorn wore hose in LotR! Too bad it's hidden most of the time by his waistcoat and long coat.
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Matthew Bunker
Location: Somerset UK Joined: 02 Apr 2009
Posts: 483
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| Posted: Sun 28 Feb, 2016 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| Pieter B. wrote: | | Maybe the guy who played the Saxon leader in King Arthur (2004) is more qualified. |
Hahahaha...that was Stellan Skarsgård, you know, the scientist from Thor?
Shows what a good (and I hesitate to use the word 'good' in connection with that bloody awful film in any way, shape or form) beard, wig and costume can do.
"If a Greek can do it, two Englishman certainly can !"
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Pieter B.
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| Posted: Sun 28 Feb, 2016 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| Matthew Bunker wrote: | | Pieter B. wrote: | | Maybe the guy who played the Saxon leader in King Arthur (2004) is more qualified. |
Hahahaha...that was Stellan Skarsgård, you know, the scientist from Thor?
Shows what a good (and I hesitate to use the word 'good' in connection with that bloody awful film in any way, shape or form) beard, wig and costume can do. |
I haven't seen Thor I am afraid, is it worth watching?
For those who haven't seen the king arthur movie and has no clue what we are talking about:
It's the beard that does it.
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Michael Kelly
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| Posted: Sun 28 Feb, 2016 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| Luka Borscak wrote: | | Pieter B. wrote: | | Roger Hooper wrote: | | J.D. Crawford wrote: | | I I guess that scarier version of Uhtred wouldn't go over so well with a general TV audience. To be fair, it's hard to think of many actors who could fit that bill, other than ex-wrestlers that can't act. |
Who would fit that bill? Most of the guys I can think of are too old now.
Vladimir Kulich? (from 13th Warrior}
Rutgar Hauer? - from his younger days. He was actually in one episode of this series as Ravn
Daniel Craig? |
Rutger Hauer is 72 now, not sure if make up and prosthetic s can hide that. I don't recall him being very tall or buff either. Maybe the guy who played the Saxon leader in King Arthur (2004) is more qualified. |
That guy would look very good as a badass Viking or Saxon. What is his name? |
The mathematician professor from Good Will Hunting? The scientist dude who ran around naked in Thor? That guy!?
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J.D. Crawford
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| Posted: Sun 28 Feb, 2016 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Kelly wrote: | | The mathematician professor from Good Will Hunting? The scientist dude who ran around naked in Thor? That guy!? |
And Beowulf & Grendel and dozens of other Swedish and English Movies. He's a great actor - can do anything from silly to scary. He'd be perfect as Guthrum or Ragnar Senior but I think he's too Scandanavian (and old) to be Uhtred.
I'm starting to get used to the the TV version, but I see him as a different character than the one in the books. More of an impetuous hothead than the brooding dangerous type.
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