Coat of plates suspension chain -- myArmoury.com

Jared Lambert · Posted: Wed 16 Jun, 2010 12:40 am Post subject: Coat of plates suspension chain

Lately i have been looking at coats of plates and have seen in both a couple illustrations and an actual piece a type of coat of plates with a suspension chain on the chest plate in illustrations i sometimes see the chest plate on the outside in an oblong shape almost a circle and i am wondering how useful a weapon suspension chain would be. I would think it would get in the way and hinder ones ability to fight.

any info or pics would be greatly appreciated,
Thank you

Sam Gordon Campbell · Posted: Wed 16 Jun, 2010 5:37 am Post subject:

Well, I now want one of those! And it looks silvered too.
With regards to fighting, I suppose if the chains were just the right length, then an opponent would have difficulty grabbing them and as such they wouldn't get in ones own way to much.
That said, I can see why one would do it for a dagger (if you lose that you're probably stuffed), but as for a sword, maybe only in a tournament or something. What the third one's for I have no clue. Back up chain?

Chad Arnow · myArmoury Team

Here's a pic of a chain securing a great helm:

I've seen images of them securing swords, daggers, and helms.

Adam O'Byrne · Posted: Wed 16 Jun, 2010 6:52 am Post subject:

I am a total amateur when it comes to historical armor but it does remind me of a modern tactical vest in a way.. the first thing that sprang to mind when looking at the image was that the chains were hung symmetrically, leading me to believe that instead of weapons it could be for carrying ammunition such as bolts. I'm not sure how they would have been carried normally though. Also I wondered if they were anchored at the bottom if they would provide any worthwhile protection beyond what the armor usually did, or maybe this was all made for someone so tired of being knocked off his horse he chained himself to the saddle Wink

.

Obviously I'm just guessing but I find it interesting to guess at somethings uses =)

Good luck finding your answers

Artis Aboltins · Posted: Wed 16 Jun, 2010 7:20 am Post subject:

I suspect that they were generally intended to be used from horseback, when range of motion you do with the weapon is diferent from one you do when dismounted, and it is somewhat limited - and risk of loosing a weapon while mounted is higher than when fighting on ground as the horse is moving and should a weapon leave you hand it is as good as gone unless you have it secured somehow...

Jared Lambert · Posted: Wed 16 Jun, 2010 9:38 am Post subject:

Sam thanks for the pic and I to could see that working with a dagger. Artis the idea of it being used mainly on horseback also makes sense because of the amount of force used loosing your weapons could be a big problem. I cant remember where i saw it but i saw a drawing of a coat of plates with suspension chains and his sword had multiple chains attached to it.

Thom R. · Posted: Wed 16 Jun, 2010 9:50 am Post subject:

My understanding is that the chains were detachable at both ends. One did not actually use the weapon with it firmly attached to your BP.

János Sibinger · Posted: Wed 16 Jun, 2010 9:56 am Post subject:

Greetings!
These chains on the coats of plates always confused me. But your comments opened my eyes! Indeed, these chains seems to be in connection with the arms and helmets of the knights. There are some examples of these kind of fittings in the book: Armour from the battle of Wisby 1361, written by Bengt Thordeman. The surprising is that almost all of them came from the present territory of Germany. If any of you met with similar construction, please, correct my missleading idea, but for me, this style, construction seems to be a German invention.
Actually I might come up with a counter opinion in this reply... Big Grin

In the Chronica picta (Hungarian manuscript from around 1360) multiple warriors are being presented wearing something strange, suspender looking leather (?) strap over their tabard (or coat of plates).
This might have served the same function?
And just a nother question: Jared, where did they find the armour, presented in your attachment? It is a really interesting and well preserved piece, it would be good to know a bit more about it.
Best wishes!

John

Jean Thibodeau · Posted: Wed 16 Jun, 2010 9:58 am Post subject:

It also seems to have been a local ( mostly German I think ? ) fashion for a limited amount of times.

I can see getting tangled up in the chain(s) or having loose sharp weapons violently bouncing around randomly if one loss control of them by dropping it.

The chains could also be used by an opponent to their advantage in close range wrestling.

The few advantages of not loosing one's dropped weapons counterbalanced by the negatives I think.

Thom R. · Posted: Wed 16 Jun, 2010 10:28 am Post subject:

The use of a chain from the breastplate or Coat of plates to the great helm is also common outside of Germany in 14th c.

Since most of us don't ride horses in full armour anymore (we walk around in our armour on foot at our events) the use of these chains seem counter-intuitive but I think if you look at it from a period perspective of being mounted on horse it makes sense

Chad Arnow · myArmoury Team

It wasn't uncommon in Italy. I'll post a number of images when I get a chance.

I'll also take a gander at some English brasses and see if I find it there as well.

Jean Thibodeau · Posted: Wed 16 Jun, 2010 10:37 am Post subject:

Chad Arnow · myArmoury Team

Here are some Italian examples, dating from the 1350s-1360s or so.

Jared Lambert · Posted: Wed 16 Jun, 2010 11:49 am Post subject:

Janos it was found at the Hirschstein bei Passau Castle (Germany) and it is from around 1350. Also another question after looking at the 24 types of coat of plates at the Wisby find This is one of the first coats of plates i have seen with a massive single chest piece i normally see them with L plates.

János Sibinger · Posted: Thu 17 Jun, 2010 9:57 am Post subject:

Thank you Jared for the quick reply, and for you all, who has helped me with my misconcepts! Happy

In the previous question you ment the armour in the first picture, right? Well, if you take a careful look at the armour #2 from the 1361 battle of Wisby, you can see that the two upper plates on the chest are being connected by means of riveting. It might be a later modification on the piece, but the top edge of the iron rib lying on it becomes a bit higher, where it meets with the plate. Was it a simple shortcut for forge welding? They simply riveted together two pieces? Anyways, it's an unique solution amongst the finds.
John

Adam Bohnstengel · Posted: Sat 03 Sep, 2011 7:34 pm Post subject: What's with the crazy chains?

Hey everyone, I've been going through the effigies of some German knights from 1325-1375, and a recurring thing I'm seeing is chains coming from the chest area, usually to their weapons. Check these guys out, especially the last one:

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/ludwi.../original/
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/fm1553282a.jpg
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/albrecht_von_hohenlohe/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/ludwig_ii_der_eisernen/
http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/mi00917g07a.jpg

These were just a few of the examples I've seen. I did a search on here, but didn't find anything. So, why would anyone have these chains attached to their weapons (?) and chest? Wouldn't this be a fairly bad idea in a fight? I can't think of any reason to have them unless you drop your sword a lot, but I can't see that having it chained to you would be beneficial.

Evan G. · Posted: Sat 03 Sep, 2011 8:03 pm Post subject:

Maybe they were all 2LT's?

I kid, I kid Big Grin

Seriously though, I really don't know. I would say that this might be a case of art trumping reality, but it seems like that wouldn't occur the same way so many times...

Tormod Engvig · Posted: Sat 03 Sep, 2011 8:18 pm Post subject:

If I'm not mistaken it was to keep the weaponry attached to the knight in case it slipped from his hand. It definitely had a practical application.

Christopher VaughnStrever · Posted: Sat 03 Sep, 2011 9:35 pm Post subject:

just like the modern chain on the wallet, just in case it falls out your pocket you won't lose it,

Jonathon Janusz · Posted: Sat 03 Sep, 2011 9:38 pm Post subject:

Tormod's got the right of it - the chains are meant to keep weapons from being lost in the event they slip from or are otherwise removed from the hands of the knight the chains are attached to. It is a fashion/design detail that held on in Germany (or areas of Germanic influence in armour) a little longer than the rest of the continent or in England.

As displayed in the linked to images, along with a few other specific design details, marks a particular armour/kit as specifically German-styled in the (very broadly) similar "international style" of armour at the time.