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Andrew Gill





Joined: 19 Feb 2015

Posts: 150

PostPosted: Thu 14 May, 2015 4:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is intended as a qualification, rather than an attempt to invalidate his arguments, (which aren't by any means untrue) but I would differ slightly from Craig in that I think using a waster (or even a staff, as a stopgap) is not necessarily a bad idea.

Firstly, it was done historically. The well-known "poem of the pell" from the late 1400s suggests using a wooden "mace" of double the weight of an actual sword to train swordsman for strength as well as skill, emphasizing delivering powerful (though presumably not wild uncontrolled) blows:
Quote:
And, as it were, upon his mortal foe:
With mightiness the weapon must be cast

It is, of course, a rough paraphrasing of Vegetius's writings on training roman army recruits a millenium earlier (and Vegetius in turn, cites this practise from even earlier sources). I suspect that the fact that the wooden weapon was double-weight may also increased its strength somewhat; long ago I broke an ash waster on a pell with an over-enthusiastic zornhau.

Secondly, you will probably want a waster or plastic equivalent at some point anyway if you continue to practise HEMA. Many (though not all) groups use them for drills and/or sparring. They do have limitations, both in realism of the simulation of the weapon they represent and safety, but they are a lot safer than sharps for any sort of partner-drills, relatively cheaper than a blunt trainer and can even be constructed by oneself if one has some woodworking ability.

Thirdly, while Craig's points regarding nicks and edge damage are valid, you can probably avoid some of the worst damage during the early stages of learning by first getting used to swinging a waster or even an appropriately sized stick around, gradually replacing it with the actual sword as you gain skill and confidence. Edge alignment is obviously important, but for some reason it didn't seem to bother instructors in the period when swords were actually used; see, for instance the "mace" in the poem of the pell, or the round cross-section single-sticks which were considered good enough to train for broadsword/cutlass/sabre in the period of their actual use on the battlefield and in duels. I know that one napoleonic era sabre manual suggests practising cutting on vegetables, and I've read of eastern-european saber-fencers doing cutting practise on clay or straw figures, i.e. separate cutting exercises were done (not unlike japanese tamashigiri) so perhaps that they did similar exercises for this purpose in earlier periods as well.

Interestingly, a friend who practised kenjitsu (not kendo) was advised by his instructor to practise striking hard blows with a bokken against a car-tyre hung from a tree and free to swing. (NB. This I would definitely not do with a sharp sword; I know from personal experience long ago that hitting a tyre with a machete (and so presumably a sword) can cause the weapon to rebound unpredictably if technique isn't perfect, and even if it is, you run the risk of messing up your cutting edge quite badly on the embedded steel wires inside most tyres. With a waster it would be safer.)

Anyway, these are just my thoughts on what I think is ultimately a question of personal preference (within certain logical boundaries)
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Thu 14 May, 2015 7:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is some indication that wooden clubs were used as training simulators for swords in the Middle Ages. And there is indeed evidence late in the Middle Ages of people using “wasters”. Yet I think it worthwhile to note that most of the training in the Middle Ages was conducted with sharps. During the 12th century, the practice that knights and men-at-arms participated in were the mock-battle melee "tournaments"- using sharps.While clubs were sometimes used after around 1200 AD, a lot of the imagery shows people using sharp swords, even in tournaments. Codex Manesse of circa 1300 AD is a good example of this. I think it's telling also that federschwerter, the historical blunt steel swords, only start to appear after circa 1500, when the long sword was being relegated more and more to the realm of schulfechten (school fencing/fencing for “sport”) rather than being used as a battlefield weapon.

Here's Codex Manesse. While it's true that we don't know how thick the edges would be on the swords in the images, I am not aware of any surviving examples of thicker-edged practice swords from this time period.



If you want to be safer when you spar with other people, I would personally recommend blunt steel swords over wasters and plastic swords. Wasters always feel block-y and thick in hand in a way that real swords do not—and this includes wasters that balanced with extra weight in the pommel to make them handle more like real swords. Plastic swords bend and flex a lot in ways that real swords do not, and again, they tend to be block-y in hand. Plus the weight is often a problem, with plastic swords being significantly lighter than real swords much of the time. Bottom line, anything made with materials other than steel performs differently and distorts your technique. Blunt steel swords are not ideal because of how they bounce, which does mess up your binding and the work of krieg, but they are a better compromise if you don't want to use sharps.

Anyways, that's where I stand. Spend enough time using sharps, especially for solo work and pell work, and it's hard to go back to wasters or plastic swords.
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Chris Friede




Location: Austin
Joined: 15 Mar 2014

Posts: 39

PostPosted: Thu 14 May, 2015 1:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Brief note to the Cold Steel polypropylene waster. I own one and love it because it is overweight and out of balance. It is great exercise for strength and accuracy development
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Bob Haynes




Location: Mount Perry, Ohio
Joined: 06 Apr 2008
Likes: 16 pages

Posts: 57

PostPosted: Thu 14 May, 2015 4:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes Andrew, that is very much what I had in mind. Thank you very much for your contribution.

I'm leaning towards the use of staffs and sticks, because even though they don't have specific edges or what have you of swords and polearms, I see them as broad stroking in a jack-of-all-trades approach, to a point into dipping into different disciplines not limited to just edged weaponry, but percussive such as sticks and staffs them own selves.
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Andrew Gill





Joined: 19 Feb 2015

Posts: 150

PostPosted: Fri 15 May, 2015 6:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bob: I too like staves and cudgels in their own right. Slightly off-topic, but are you aware of the old Italian and Portuguese staff arts like jogo du pau (or bata - irish cudgel fighting) which have an unbroken lineage into the present day?

Craig: Thanks for your reply. Would it be true to say that melees with sharp weapons were more a feature of the early renaissance/high middle ages (pre-1300)? Surely given that Bob's longsword is a replica of a fifteenth century weapon, using training implements more associated with the later renaissance isn't entirely out of place? Also I would argue (and invite critique of the argument) that the sort of training provided by a tournament melee would be more about battle tactics and learning to deal with the psychological pressures of mass combat (which I think are somewhat different to those of single combat - do you agree?), rather than practising and perfecting execution of technique and form, which one does with pell-work, and solo and partner drills, I think.

I do agree that sparring with steel blunts, and doing solo-work with sharps is great if 1) you can afford or have access to these and 2) you've built up the basic level of competence and control to do so without endangering yourself or your sparring partner unduly, or seriously damaging your weapon (which could also result in injuries). For me, wasters are "good enough" or "better than nothing" when at least one of those two conditions doesn't hold - you can still learn a lot of the basic principles with them, even if you need to fine-tune some of your technique later. Personally I will never spar with sharps; it's just too dangerous for my liking.
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Sun 17 May, 2015 8:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It certainly is true that the melee as a form of war training was more common in the 12th and 13th centuries than later centuries. Even in the 13th there is a clear movement towards more ritualized jousting. As far as whether or not the melees were for practicing and perfecting technique and form, that's harder to say. I'm not sure to what extent knights and men-at-arms trained with pells in the earlier centuries, nor to what extent they practiced against a quintain. While I agree that the melees where excellent for the psychological pressures, tactics, and teamwork, it seems likely that the majority of a knight's training in technique and form was indeed practiced in the melees, as well as in the field. As evidence for this, recall that Richard the Lionheart ended the moratorium on tournaments in 1194 not just because they were financially lucrative, but also because he was concerned that the French knights who participated in the tournaments in Philip Augustus' realm would be better trained for war than those of the Angevin realm.

In term's of Bob's case, I would argue that the great majority—if not the overwhelming majority—of evidence for the 15th century indicates that training was being done with thin-bladed swords (albeit probably dulled). Look at the fechtbücher: nearly all from the 15th century show swords that could have easily been used for ernst fechten. There are only three manuscripts from the 15th century that might depict federschwerter. The first is an image from Gladiatoria, which shows a sword with a slightly flared ricasso. It's not certain to me, however, that the sword is meant to be a feder; it could be a sharp. There is relatively little doubt that the warrior's opponent is fencing with a sword that is a sharp (even if it isn't sharpened). The only unambiguous federschwerter is shown in the hands of Johannes Liechtenauer in the 1452 Rome edition of the so-called Peter von Danzig Fechtbüch. The last manuscript from the 15th century is Cod.Guelf.78.2 Aug.2°, which like Gladiatoria simply shows a slight flare at the ricasso on what looks like could easily be a sharp sword. Save for these instances, every other manuscript at the time depicts sharps, and the overwhelming majority of other 15th century images show sharps. So it seems most appropriate to practice against a pell with a thin-bladed sword, whether deliberately sharpened or not.

Of course, if someone doesn't feel comfortable using a sharp at first, that's fine. Wanting to ensure enough basic control over a sword before moving to practice with a sharp makes sense. I would encourage, however, for the person to move to using a sharp as quickly as they safely and comfortably can. Practicing with a sharp sword is significantly less dangerous than shooting a firearm with live ammunition, yet many people fire guns once they have adequate basic training in gun safety. The only times I won't use sharps in my solo training is if there is inclement weather or the surface I am stepping on seems slippery other otherwise unreliable; in these situations, I usually simply will not practice at all.

Ultimately, if you are wanting to understand how to use a sword as a tool of war, it makes the most sense to practice with sharps as much as possible, including against a pell. What you train has a major impact on how your skills develop. That's why I prefer to use sharps for pells: I want my practice to be with the real thing.

Sources: http://hroarr.com/federschwert-or-a-blunt-longsword/
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Bob Haynes




Location: Mount Perry, Ohio
Joined: 06 Apr 2008
Likes: 16 pages

Posts: 57

PostPosted: Sat 28 Nov, 2015 10:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thought I'd swing by with a Sit Rep on my pell training. It has really revitalized my swordsmanship, and has shed new life and appreciation for my sword. It does absolutely feel right training with it on my pell.

Almost every day I train with it, for about a half hour further split into five minute drills. They mostly consist of different angled strikes, three drills do anyways. During each I keep on the move shifting back and forth, side to side as I make focused and quick yet relaxed strikes as suggested. Usually in one-two in a follow-through, mixing in mastercuts and a second long edge strike.

When my geometry is off and it glances off the round sides of the fence post (do I smell a pun?), and take advantage of the flat sides of it by lunging with a flat-of-strong displacement style 'parry' followed up by a pommel or hilt strike.

Three of these five minute drills consist of diagonal, horizontal, and vertical strikes, usually in that order. Followed by another five minutes of thrusting of various kinds.

The other ten minutes of are one-handed work split between each hand. Originally it was just plain to strength train for more appropriate single-handed weapons, but between the weight and awkward balance for one-handed work with this beast... Well funny I use that terminology because that made beg me to tame it so to speak.

After working with it one-handed so much, it is starting to actually feel very wieldly when I apply my knife fighting drills to it, using quick and compact strikes with focus on the wrist.
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