Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > A definition for "doubled mail" Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Ahmad Tabari





Joined: 15 Jun 2008

Posts: 148

PostPosted: Sat 25 Oct, 2014 4:13 pm    Post subject: A definition for "doubled mail"         Reply with quote

Hello all. I think I may have found a definition for the elusive "doubled mail" that many have wondered about. Keep in mind that this is a 14th century Arab definition and may not necessarily apply to what Latin sources referred to.

I found the definition in the 6th volume of Nihayat al-Arb by al-Nuwairi (a 14th century Egyptian historian). It is contained in a section of his book which discusses mail and the various ways it was referred to by contemporaries and predecessors. The following quote is my translation from the original Arabic definition:

"Doubled [mail] refers to that which is woven two rings by two rings"

Thus it seems to imply that the doubled mail we often wondered about is basically mail weave using double the amount of rings like king's mail.
View user's profile Send private message
Aaron O'Bryan-Herriott




Location: Edmonds, Wa
Joined: 24 May 2006
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Sat 25 Oct, 2014 7:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fascinating.
Thanks Ahmad Happy
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,636

PostPosted: Sat 25 Oct, 2014 7:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Does the text describe other types of mail?
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
View user's profile Send private message
Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,302

PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2014 4:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Like Dan, I would also be interested in seeing all the varieties described. From a bit of research, it seems the work dates to c. 1315-1332.

There are a number of varieties of mail described in European sources, many of which are not so explicit concerning the difference --tournament mail being one example.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
View user's profile Send private message
Ahmad Tabari





Joined: 15 Jun 2008

Posts: 148

PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2014 5:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry for the late reply.

I am afraid doubled mail is the only thing al-Nuwairi mentions regarding mail woven in a different pattern. He mostly focuses on the different technical terms used for mail shirts. For instance he says that “sabigha” refers to a wide or spacious mail coat. “Dulamisun” is the adjective used to refer to very shiny mail. “Dikhasun” refers to a mail coat with “tightly/closely woven rings”. “Dhailatun” is the adjective describing a mail coat with a long skirt. “Sabiriyya” refers to mail with a light weave or using light rings. And “Sukkun” means mail with small rings.
View user's profile Send private message
Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 805

PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2014 6:36 pm    Post subject: Re: A definition for "doubled mail"         Reply with quote

Ahmad Tabari wrote:
Hello all. I think I may have found a definition for the elusive "doubled mail" that many have wondered about. Keep in mind that this is a 14th century Arab definition and may not necessarily apply to what Latin sources referred to.

I found the definition in the 6th volume of Nihayat al-Arb by al-Nuwairi (a 14th century Egyptian historian). It is contained in a section of his book which discusses mail and the various ways it was referred to by contemporaries and predecessors. The following quote is my translation from the original Arabic definition:

"Doubled [mail] refers to that which is woven two rings by two rings"

Thus it seems to imply that the doubled mail we often wondered about is basically mail weave using double the amount of rings like king's mail.


The Japanese used doubled mail, here is an example of a 6 in 1 pattern using doubled butted links.

View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,636

PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2014 8:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That doesn't really help unless the same weave is found in a Middle Eastern context. We know that the Japanese used a lot of weaves that nobody else used. European 6-in-1 and 8-in 2 would also qualify. Does anyone know of any examples of Turko-Persian mail that matches al-Nuwairi's description?
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,636

PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2014 9:02 pm    Post subject: Re: A definition for "doubled mail"         Reply with quote

Ahmad Tabari wrote:
"Doubled [mail] refers to that which is woven two rings by two rings".

Hey, Ahmad, what is the Arabic term for "doubled mail"?

Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,636

PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2014 9:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Persian writer, Shahidi, wrote Taziyeh va Tazieyekhani in the same century (1380), and in it he distinguishes between two different kinds of mail. The first one was called zereh davudi ("davudi style mail") or zereh mikh gerd ("mail with rounded rivets"), and the second type was called zereh mamuli ("common mail").
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
View user's profile Send private message
Ahmad Tabari





Joined: 15 Jun 2008

Posts: 148

PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2014 10:21 pm    Post subject: Re: A definition for "doubled mail"         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Ahmad Tabari wrote:
"Doubled [mail] refers to that which is woven two rings by two rings".

Hey, Ahmad, what is the Arabic term for "doubled mail"?

Al-Nuwairi uses the term مضاعفة (spelled muda'afa phoenetically) to refer to this mail type. This word could either mean doubled or multiplied. Considering the definition he provides though, it should be translated as doubled.
View user's profile Send private message
Ahmad Tabari





Joined: 15 Jun 2008

Posts: 148

PostPosted: Sun 26 Oct, 2014 10:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

With regards to extant mail matching the description, I believe I might have come across a couple of 6 in 1 patterns used for a stiffened collar. Though I am not sure if this would match his description and I dont know of any full middle eastern shirts using ta doubled construction.
View user's profile Send private message
Stephen Curtin




Location: Cork, Ireland
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Likes: 110 pages
Reading list: 18 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,220

PostPosted: Tue 28 Oct, 2014 3:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for sharing this Ahmad. So this seems to narrow theories about double mail down to weaves denser than the standard 4 in 1.
Éirinn go Brách
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,636

PostPosted: Tue 28 Oct, 2014 4:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stephen Curtin wrote:
Thanks for sharing this Ahmad. So this seems to narrow theories about double mail down to weaves denser than the standard 4 in 1.

In the Middle East it seems to. There is no way to know whether the Europeans used the term the same way.

Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
View user's profile Send private message
William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,523

PostPosted: Tue 28 Oct, 2014 5:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Stephen Curtin wrote:
Thanks for sharing this Ahmad. So this seems to narrow theories about double mail down to weaves denser than the standard 4 in 1.

In the Middle East it seems to. There is no way to know whether the Europeans used the term the same way.


later on the most certainly did, there is a maille 'bishops mantle' from the early 16th century which you can see has different sections with whhat looks likemaille weaves of different densities..

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/342555115380835956/
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/342555115380835955/
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Stephen Curtin




Location: Cork, Ireland
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Likes: 110 pages
Reading list: 18 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,220

PostPosted: Tue 28 Oct, 2014 5:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:

In the Middle East it seems to. There is no way to know whether the Europeans used the term the same way.


Fair enough point Dan, but it does improve the chances of it being true for Europe also. IMO anyway.

Éirinn go Brách
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,636

PostPosted: Tue 28 Oct, 2014 5:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William P wrote:
Dan Howard wrote:
Stephen Curtin wrote:
Thanks for sharing this Ahmad. So this seems to narrow theories about double mail down to weaves denser than the standard 4 in 1.

In the Middle East it seems to. There is no way to know whether the Europeans used the term the same way.


later on the most certainly did, there is a maille 'bishops mantle' from the early 16th century which you can see has different sections with whhat looks likemaille weaves of different densities..

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/342555115380835956/
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/342555115380835955/


What you have there is regular 4-in-1 mail. The upper links are smaller than the lower links but it is all the same weave. Are you saying that this is double mail because the links are twice as heavy? Perhaps the links are small enough that twice as many are needed, which is closer to the the Arabic definition. But a different weave makes more sense, such as in 6-in-1 or 8-in-2 mail. Looking at the above definition, 8-in-2 sounds closest to "woven two rings by two rings".

Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
View user's profile Send private message
Stephen Curtin




Location: Cork, Ireland
Joined: 17 Nov 2007
Likes: 110 pages
Reading list: 18 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,220

PostPosted: Tue 28 Oct, 2014 5:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Looking at the above definition, 8-in-2 sounds closest to "woven two rings by two rings".


I agree.

Éirinn go Brách
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,523

PostPosted: Tue 28 Oct, 2014 5:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I just thought that to be that close together that it'd be using a denser weave like, 6 in 1 or 8-2 maille or something, that's pretty much all i thought

i didnt notice the links being that different in seize although with the massive difference in density bbetween the two sections, it is harder to check.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > A definition for "doubled mail"
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum