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Mark Moore
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 Posted: Wed 15 Oct, 2014 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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I can totally do without any Eastern curved-bladed sword. I do admit that I like falchions and certain other Western curved swords , like a Swiss saber. When I was in highschool years ago, every boy (and a few girls) had a cheapo stainless steel $29.95 katana. It sickened me, because I already owned several GOOD swords of European origin, and that was why I was biased then , and now. Don't get me wrong......I truly respect a Japanese or Chinese sword of good quality, but they just ain't my cup o' tea.  .............McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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Jeremy V. Krause
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| Posted: Wed 15 Oct, 2014 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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I don't care for the appearance of falcatas, kopis (Kopi?), or anything with that "bent forward" blade. Just can't develop a taste for them.
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David Wilson
Location: In a van down by the river Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Wed 15 Oct, 2014 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, fine.
Here are a couple sword designs I. Just. Can't. Stand. Of course, they are only swords in the academic sense, that is, they're made of metal and look vaguely swordish. Now please remember, once you have seen these, you cannot unsee them. I will not be held responsible for any descent into insanity that may occur because of these pictures. You have been warned.
here they be:
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David K. Wilson, Jr.
Laird of Glencoe
Now available on Amazon: Franklin Posner's "Suburban Vampire: A Tale of the Human Condition -- With Vampires" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072N7Y591
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Boris Bedrosov
Industry Professional
Location: Bourgas, Bulgaria Joined: 06 Nov 2005
Posts: 700
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| Posted: Wed 15 Oct, 2014 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I personally can't point any type of historical weapon I really don't like.
I always try to find the beauty in them and to pay respect to the people who created them, to their knowledge and their craftsmanship. Interestingly, I succeed almost everytime.
But what I really don't like are the badly-designed modern fantasy weapons and almost all of the movie ones. With a few notable exceptions (let me point just "Arn - The Knight Templar" as one of the good), all others represent the Medieval weaponry, regardless period and culture, in the worst-possible way.
Just a quick edit: When I was writing this, Mr. David Wilson showed in best manner what I understand as "badly-designed modern fantasy weapons". Thanks, David!
"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu
Find my works on Facebook:
Boris Bedrosov's Armoury
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Christopher Treichel
Location: Metro D.C. Joined: 14 Jan 2010
Posts: 268
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| Posted: Wed 15 Oct, 2014 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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ok how about we keep this to real swords... I don't think anyone here would stick their hand in the air to support those SLOs.
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Jussi Ekholm
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| Posted: Wed 15 Oct, 2014 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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I thought the original idea of the thread was pretty fun and cool. There are always swords that you like and swords that you dislike even among your favorite culture, or time periods that you just don't like as much as the previous ones.
Here is one for those who dislike Japanese swords, but I'll try to make it funny. Here you can see 5 Japanese swords side by side (unfortunately they are not on the same size scale...). The fun part is that even on just based on these low quality reduced pics I could immidiately say that I like 3 of them very much, and I don't like 2 of them that much. There are reasons for my own likes and dislikes of these but it would take me far too long to write them up. These are all published in Nihonto Koza.
The question is do they all seem similar to you? Do you like some of them more than others? Of course it's hard to say anything based on these downsized pics.
Personally I'm not a big fan of post-Renaissance European style swords. However every now and then I find up a piece or type which I find fitting to my own taste.
Jussi Ekholm
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Stephen Curtin
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| Posted: Wed 15 Oct, 2014 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| David Wilson wrote: | Okay, fine.
Here are a couple sword designs I. Just. Can't. Stand. Of course, they are only swords in the academic sense, that is, they're made of metal and look vaguely swordish. Now please remember, once you have seen these, you cannot unsee them. I will not be held responsible for any descent into insanity that may occur because of these pictures. You have been warned
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Well you warned us not to look, but I didn't listen. WHY didn't I listen?
Éirinn go Brách
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Chris Friede
Location: Austin Joined: 15 Mar 2014
Posts: 39
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| Posted: Fri 17 Oct, 2014 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| Stephen Curtin wrote: | | David Wilson wrote: | Okay, fine.
Here are a couple sword designs I. Just. Can't. Stand. Of course, they are only swords in the academic sense, that is, they're made of metal and look vaguely swordish. Now please remember, once you have seen these, you cannot unsee them. I will not be held responsible for any descent into insanity that may occur because of these pictures. You have been warned
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Well you warned us not to look, but I didn't listen. WHY didn't I listen? |
Hah! My reaction, exactly!
I am impressed by the realization here that most of us who do not like one style freely admit it is more out of ignorance than any prejudice...okay, maybe not those fantasy SLOs...those are horrible...
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J. Nicolaysen
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| Posted: Sat 18 Oct, 2014 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you Christopher. I have to say, that guy has poise. Nice video, although I couldn't get a great look at the actual smallsword.
David Wilson, there is a special circle of hell for the makers of those...things. I have never seen anything quite like that. I hope to never again.
Glen, I would hate to have this be a simple VS thread, or a Hate fest. Not my intention at all for what it is worth. Your posts in particular have helped me see several examples of swords of a type and time I know little about, but I value getting to see those weapons. I do admire that they were truly weapons of a specific use, and that the variations are there even if at this point they look very similar to me.
Jussi, when you look at Japanese swords that you like, do you focus most on the hamon? They can always be striking, but I like to notice the sori and hada and other characteristics to the extent that I can. Hard to see much detail. I'd say I like the left two and the far right the best. What about you? I know you have a much more advanced eye and level of first-hand knowledge than me for sure.
One thing that is nice about that group of five katana is that they are solely the blade, with no koshirae to influence a viewer. Like the pattern-welded swords of Europe, there is a really fascinating study just on the blade characteristics. However, again like those Migration-era and Anglo-Saxon and Viking swords, the fittings and furniture can be amazing to see the level of art. It's hard to link to directly, but Item 707 under Katana/Tachi from www.ricecracker.com has a koshirae I love. There was another but it must have sold.
Regarding "I can't stand" there is a very distressing level of putridity to be found in Japanese style SLO's. That would get a true Hate-fest thread, along with David's examples, but I prefer to virtuously focus on the beautiful and enlightening.
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Shahril Dzulkifli
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| Posted: Tue 26 Jan, 2016 1:59 am Post subject: I can't stand.... |
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A medieval torture sword? Looks more like a fantasy sword to me due to its weird-looking blade.
Speaking of its blade, it is used for thrusting rather than cutting.
Plus I've never heard of swords being used for torturing during medieval times.
“You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength”
- Marcus Aurelius
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J.D. Crawford
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| Posted: Tue 26 Jan, 2016 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| Stephen Curtin wrote: | | I have yet to see an example of an Oakeshott type XI or XVII which tickles my fancy. I'd be interested to hear any fans of these types tell me what it is that attracts them to these swords. |
A bit late in the response, but here's my A&A type XI. I like the design because the short handle, distinctive hilt components, and long (37.5"), medium width blade combine to look elegant to my eye. A true horseman's blade.
Speaking for myself, I don't like weapons that are designed to be decorative. This goes double for tourist-shop wall hangers, but also includes historical ceremonial swords. When it comes to weapons and other tools, for me beauty arises from function.
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Bram Verbeek
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| Posted: Tue 26 Jan, 2016 10:30 am Post subject: |
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I don't care much for smallswords and spadroons, nor for mortuary hilts and Tulwars.
This is probably because I never researched them, I find that everything I do research, I come to understand and even like.
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J. Nicolaysen
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| Posted: Tue 26 Jan, 2016 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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PostPosted: Tue 26 Jan, 2016 7:19 am Post subject:
Stephen Curtin wrote:
I have yet to see an example of an Oakeshott type XI or XVII which tickles my fancy. I'd be interested to hear any fans of these types tell me what it is that attracts them to these swords.
A bit late in the response, but here's my A&A type XI. I like the design because the short handle, distinctive hilt components, and long (37.5"), medium width blade combine to look elegant to my eye. A true horseman's blade.
Speaking for myself, I don't like weapons that are designed to be decorative. This goes double for tourist-shop wall hangers, but also includes historical ceremonial swords. When it comes to weapons and other tools, for me beauty arises from function. |
Thank you JD Crawford for exactly what this topic was intended for. That's a beautiful XI, like all of your customs.
Since starting this topic I have seen some great examples of rapiers both modern and in pictures and I've come around quite a bit. I won't be ordering one any time soon, but as I have learned more of the types of that sword and other complex-hilted swords, I do now see the appeal. Oakeshott's book "European Weapons and Armour" helped me out, as well as some great pics of repros and originals I've found here. I might post some examples that helped convert or at least sway me.
So consider me edumacated!
However I have another challenge. I can't stand pig's face bascinets. I understand the form follows the function, but they are ugly, they look tediously similar and though I love the rest of that period of armour, and helmets are a passion, I would wear anything on my head besides a pigs face bascinet. And houndskulls aren't any better. I'd go for a chapeau de fer or a sallet or a barbute or anything but those things!  
Any takers?
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Michael Brudon
Location: South Pacific Joined: 21 Dec 2013
Posts: 107
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| Posted: Tue 26 Jan, 2016 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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Katanas. 3 post WW2 generations of westerners believing they were the be all and end all thanks to hollywood. They can cut bricks, a handkerchief dropped on the blade will split in half, etc and how about the guys who have 4 or 5 cheap ones in a rack in their lounge room and clean them wearing a headband with japanese writing on it. Actually I don't mind katanas, more just recalling the dark age of western martial arts, aka growing up in the 70's and 80's. Bruce lee had hit the big screen in the 60's and for another 3 decades one didn't dare speak out against Asian mysticism(or hollywood) 
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Thu 28 Jan, 2016 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| J. Nicolaysen wrote: |
However I have another challenge. I can't stand pig's face bascinets. I understand the form follows the function, but they are ugly, they look tediously similar and though I love the rest of that period of armour, and helmets are a passion, I would wear anything on my head besides a pigs face bascinet. And houndskulls aren't any better. I'd go for a chapeau de fer or a sallet or a barbute or anything but those things!
Any takers? |
Sure, I'll take this one on. I remember that when I was younger, perhaps during my teens, I really didn't care for pig-faced bascinets. As you said, something about the visor just looked weird and ugly. Gradually, however, my dislike for them faded. I think the reason is that pig-faced bascinets are part of the iconic late 14th century armour. For me, they epitomize the helmet that accompanies the first true suits of full plate armour. I realize there were other helmets in use at the time, but were I to purchase a late 14th century full plate harness, I can't imagine ordering any other helmet.
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Thu 28 Jan, 2016 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| J. Nicolaysen wrote: |
Since starting this topic I have seen some great examples of rapiers both modern and in pictures and I've come around quite a bit. I won't be ordering one any time soon, but as I have learned more of the types of that sword and other complex-hilted swords, I do now see the appeal. Oakeshott's book "European Weapons and Armour" helped me out, as well as some great pics of repros and originals I've found here. I might post some examples that helped convert or at least sway me.
So consider me edumacated!
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Kem,
Have you tried practicing with rapiers? I think that would shift your perception even further. There's something about the elegance of the movement, the artfulness of quickly binding and displacing a thrust, that's seductive.
I must admit that I have not practiced rapier once since I first responded to this thread. Long sword, and also sword and shield, and grosse messer practice remain my priority. But I still appreciate and admire the rapier, even if it's not what I tend to practice.
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Kuo Xie
Location: Chicago, IL Joined: 29 Feb 2012
Posts: 76
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| Posted: Thu 28 Jan, 2016 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| J. Nicolaysen wrote: |
However I have another challenge. I can't stand pig's face bascinets. I understand the form follows the function, but they are ugly, they look tediously similar and though I love the rest of that period of armour, and helmets are a passion, I would wear anything on my head besides a pigs face bascinet. And houndskulls aren't any better. I'd go for a chapeau de fer or a sallet or a barbute or anything but those things!
Any takers? |
I agree with you on all counts. Hounskul visors have always looked comical to me, like a helmet from a suit of armor in a Bugs bunny cartoon.
I also have to echo the dislike of 18th - 20th century military swords. They have this mass-produced look and feel to them, like they were all stamped out of the same mold in Solingen or Birmingham. A lot of them use brass fittings and metal scabbards which just have a cheap feeling to me. The preceding backswords and sidewords of the late Renaissance were largely mass produced too, but they just looked much more organic and hand finished, with individual craftsmanship much more involved. Just compare the elegant shaping of the handguard here:
With the guard here that looks like stamped sheet metal:
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J. Nicolaysen
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| Posted: Fri 29 Jan, 2016 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Sure, I'll take this one on. I remember that when I was younger, perhaps during my teens, I really didn't care for pig-faced bascinets. As you said, something about the visor just looked weird and ugly. Gradually, however, my dislike for them faded. I think the reason is that pig-faced bascinets are part of the iconic late 14th century armour. For me, they epitomize the helmet that accompanies the first true suits of full plate armour. I realize there were other helmets in use at the time, but were I to purchase a late 14th century full plate harness, I can't imagine ordering any other helmet. |
Hey Craig, I certainly can admit that en suite a pig face bascinet can look pretty cool, like this stellar example from Ian La Spina found in the Kits and Harnesses thread.
But on their own I don't see much to love, while I happily yearn to collect a set of iconic helmets preceding and following the late 1300s, no harness necessary. I'd love to have examples from the migration era up to the 18th century and I can name almost all of them, but for this bascinet.
edited to add: I guess I just have not come across an example of a bascinet that is a great example of the form, a standout example in the way the Lough Henney, the Pembridge Great Helm, or any of the Vendel helms. Even the classic Norman helm or any number of sallets and kettle helms just look great. And that's not even getting into the weird beauty of the bronze age helms. Maybe there's a pigface bascinet out there like that, I don't know.
Kuo, what kind of helmet do you wear with your kit? I remember you having a nice kit but I couldn't find the helmet this time.
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J. Nicolaysen
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| Posted: Fri 29 Jan, 2016 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Have you tried practicing with rapiers? I think that would shift your perception even further. There's something about the elegance of the movement, the artfulness of quickly binding and displacing a thrust, that's seductive. |
Craig, I am not close by anyone with a rapier to try one out, but I think the feel of one, the exact purpose for its use would really get me excited for one. They seemed so pretty and flimsy, but it's true that is secondary for a good weapon. Oakeshott seems to differentiate between rapiers and schwerts based on usability in his books and uses the same terminology to describe the hilts. I'd like to pick one up to see for myself, for sure.
I was able to semi-convert a JSA friend (sandan in his style) to the western sword after handing him my A&A Black Prince, he thought it is a great handling sword and saw its appeal right away. Next time I meet up with him I won't be surprised if he has one. Not that we could actually play around with wasters, I don't have much knowledge yet of HEMA practical steps. But if it is a well designed weapon I think that can do a lot of the converting on its own, as you say.
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Fri 29 Jan, 2016 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| J. Nicolaysen wrote: | | They seemed so pretty and flimsy, but it's true that is secondary for a good weapon. |
Regarding this point: in my experience, it's more likely that a poor modern replica rapier will be flimsy than many of the real ones. Rapiers come in an astonishing variety of cross sections, and while many may be comparatively thin, the cross sections are frequently not flimsy at all.
It's like a Type XVII long sword. One might br tempted to dismiss them as flimsy or weak because of how narrow the blades are. Yet, if you've ever held an XVII, you know that the hexagonal cross section makes them anything but flimsy, and that they even can have surprising mass for their blade size.
The same is true of many rapiers. They often have diamond, triangular, and hexagonal cross sections, meaning that their rigidity and heft will probably surprise you.
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