[Craig Peters]

The other details of this image aside, the cross on the surcoat looks better, more appropriate to what we see in other illustrations. To further reinforce my other theme about the unreliability of modern images, notice that the spurs are round rowel spurs. They should be 13th century style prick spurs, and not rowel spurs. The red cross, which was Phil's real purpose in showing this image, looks fine.

[Mart Shearer]

Is there evidence the Templars were wearing surcoats as early as the Third Crusade? I thought the dispensation to wear surcoats in war zones wasn't granted until 1240 -- 1248 for the Hospitallers.

[Roberto E.]

[Craig Peters]

I'm not sure Mart. I think I had read from someone posting here on myArmoury that knights wore surcoats in the Third Crusade, but that may not have been correct. The images I've seen from the 1190s look much more like bliauts to me. From what you've indicated, it seems as though the bliaut worn under the mail, sans surcoat, is what should be worn if representing the Third Crusade.

[Craig Peters]

[Phil D.]

Found these...I don't read French but depicts a variety of crosses on surcoat and shield...

http://www.puystory.fr/archives/2011/05/06/15362619.html

[Phil D.]

Aaaand one last Osprey...and 2 reference sites...




Lin Robinson posted the info below on another discussion.It may be helpful:

http://the-orb.net/encyclop/religion/monastic/comprule.html This is not what you are looking for but is a starting point. Amazon has the French text of The Rule in book form. Here is another site to review. http://www.templiers.org/regle1-eng.php

There were actually two "Rules", the original written in Latin which was translated into French and the French Rule which was apparently a work in progress right up until the time of the suppression and which has many, many more provisions than the Latin Rule.

What you are seeking is how your character should look and be armed. Edward Burman's excellent but seldom referred to book, The Templars - Knights of God contains some interesting information taken from the French Rule which is more likely to help you meet your goal. Burman does not discuss the placement of the cross or the banner and shield painting but does indicate that the cross was a later addition to the surcoat and that at first they wore plain white. The serjeants wore black or brown. Here is what Burman says:

Armor - Mail coif with helmet. Mail leggings and protection for the feet and shoulders. While not mentioned I think we can assume a mail hauberk. A triangular shield with curved sides.

Weapons - Broad sword, lance, Turkish mace , three daggers - one on the belt, one pocket knife and one described as a very short knife with a long blade. This probably refers to the proportions of hilt and blade.

Other - A maximum of three horses unless the Master allows a fourth. One squire.

Burman does not provide the complete Rule. Your best bet for that is probably Amazon. com.

[Foong Chen Hong]

Osprey seem to be the most accurate modern art.

[Mart Shearer]

Phil D.,

Those latest wall paintings are also from the Templar chapel at Cressac. Again, these are generally dated to c. 1200 and might be post-Third Crusade, and we know what a difference a decade or two can make. Judging from the good appearance of these images, I suspect they are among those which have been restored based upon the watercolors made by Eugène Sadoux in 1872. How accurate Mssr. Sadoux's illustrations were to the originals brings in another possible element of error.

Some of these figures are thought to be Saracens, while others might be non-Templar Crusaders. Even which battle is being depicted is in dispute.

http://crusaderimagery.com/france/cressac/

[Roberto E.]

So out of curiosity, I looked for the book where these pictures come from.
The book itself seems to be very well based.
With a dense bibliography and alot of the manuscripts that you guys have shown me included.
They got somethings right like the coif and mitons being integrated into their armor.

They seem to be based on alot of research.

HOWEVER! I know you guys are WAY more experienced than I am at this.
So there is a big chance that i might be wrong on this.

It includes both primary and secondary sources in the biblio

Just wanted to put this out there to see if these images are truly not helpful in our search.

Also, I wanted to thank everybody again for the amount of time put into my topic.
and apologize for my ignorance in some aspects.
thanks for the patience and the help!

[Roberto E.]

Forgot to mention

Speaking about Osprey book by Helen Nicholson ^

[Craig Peters]

Roberto,

When I wrote that you should not trust modern illustrations, part of what I was thinking of specifically were the modern illustrations in the Osprey series. ;-)

[Roberto E.]

[Roberto E.]

[Roger Hooper]

This Thread covers that question. There is some disagreement, but most think it became common sometime in the 1200's. There is a common idea that the surcoat started as a way to keep mail worn by Crusaders in the Levant from overheating, but it's not necessarily true.

[Dan Howard]

[Dan Howard]

[Craig Peters]

[Craig Peters]

[Dan Howard]