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Jeffrey Faulk




Location: Georgia
Joined: 01 Jan 2011

Posts: 578

PostPosted: Wed 17 Sep, 2014 9:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gripping the pommel is one of those hotly contested HEMA topics. I think it's obvious there's more leverage and thus hitting power if you do so (depending on the position of the leading hand), but on the other hand, for less experienced HEMAists there may be control issues with your hands that far apart.

It's all a matter of experience, practice, and not getting locked into one mindset above another. If gripping the pommel lets you win a fight, then by all means do so, unless it's specifically forbidden in the rules you're playing by.

On the issue of practice swords: Plastic (as in PVC? it's a hard white plastic like cutting boards) wasters are becoming increasingly popular and the pricing is fairly competitive compared to steel feders.

There are also a number of European smiths who are happy to do blunt steel versions of almost any sword, often for fairly reasonable prices. The shipping is what will hurt there, though...
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Hector A.





Joined: 22 Dec 2013

Posts: 143

PostPosted: Wed 17 Sep, 2014 3:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
Quote:


I'm sorry to have to call you out like this but its very much the contrary, gripping the pommel gives more power and if you got a wheel pommel it will also let you know if the edge is making alignment easier.
The benefit of having hands close together is to have them protected as much as possible with the cross guard, thanks to simple angulation.



I went out and did some cutting, and found I am mistaken. I could strike with more power with a second hand on the pommel. What I also found, at least for a zornhau, is that the wider my hands were spaced apart, the easier it was for my strike to follow an eccentric path if I was not careful. Perhaps this is what Dobringer means about striking harder/stronger and truer. A strike that follows an eccentric path probably will not cleave as deeply as one that follows a cleaner and more constant line.


Yep that's something important i forgot to mention, if you grab the pommel you will lose some significant control on the weapon such as stopping it after a strike, you also have a harder time making the blade follow a path just like you said but this is something you quickly learn to compensate, because your use to the pommel acting as a counterweight (as it should) when both hands are on the grip.
But really the main reason to keep hands on the grip is like i said so that the cross guard protects both your hands (given it is in balance with the grip length), but you can't always grip the grip, bastard swords for example have significantly smaller grips by design but also have a lower weight to compensate the lose of control when you do grip that pommel.

TL;DR: always try to get a sword with a grip big enough for the size of your hands width, if its not, make sure first that it has a suitably gripable pommel and second that its not to heavy to control (good rule of thumb is under 1.5 kilos).
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Wed 17 Sep, 2014 7:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeffrey Faulk wrote:
Gripping the pommel is one of those hotly contested HEMA topics. I think it's obvious there's more leverage and thus hitting power if you do so (depending on the position of the leading hand), but on the other hand, for less experienced HEMAists there may be control issues with your hands that far apart.


Jeffrey,

Personally, I've spent a lot of time striking both ways, since I was taught to strike with my hands spaced apart. It's not really an issue of lack of experience. If a particular way of striking more naturally and easily facilitates better precision and form, I'm all for it, which is why I keep my hands together for some of the strikes. I also guarantee that if you closely filmed and monitored other experienced HEMA practitioners striking zornhau with their second hand on the pommel, there will be a lot more eccentric motions in their strike than you expect. All other things being equal, a way of gripping the sword that inherently requires extra care to prevent distorted motion will result more distorted motions. It's no different than a shooting stance for a handgun: a position that inherently promotes stability will tend to be more effective than a stance which does not.

I won't go so far as to say that other people need to do as I do; that's how so much of the nonsense HEMA arguments begin. I will state from personal experience that I prefer hands together for some strikes. It's up to the practitioner to determine which is most appropriate for him or her to use.
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Wed 17 Sep, 2014 7:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As a side note, I would also say that the larger and longer your steel sword is, the more appropriate it is to space your hands apart. Sword size is a factor in determining how to place your hands.
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Peter Johnsson
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Location: Storvreta, Sweden
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Wed 17 Sep, 2014 11:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you look at swords of the period that the Steward belongs to stylistically, you se *many* swords of exactly this size, with grips of this dimension.
It is almost a modern obsession that sword grips must be roomy. It might follow from our idea of a comfortable life: XXXL cars, XXXL servings and XXXL grips on swords.

All discussion today wether a grip is too short or not functional must be seen in context. It worked back then and swords of this size are common enough for us to take the trouble to give them a closer look. Perhaps we will even learn something new in the process?
If you want to study what historical swordsmanship is all about, it would seem that it is a good idea to use swords that are similar to the ones used in the period you are interested in?

Surely there were swords that were bigger. Such swords are currently represented by the Baron, the Duke and the Archduke.
But if you want a representative of those swords that are large enough to be classified as war sword, that are on the smaller end of the scale, then the Steward might be a good choice.

The Albion NG swords express typical design features of period swords of specific types.
That is the central idea behind this line of swords.
This affords contemporary swordsmen to learn by direct experience and to evaluate the validity of their interpretations of ancient fighting styles.
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Wed 17 Sep, 2014 11:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would like to second what Peter says about great swords with shorter grips, from the perspective of manuscript illustrations. If you look for images of great swords with longer grips in 13th and 14th century images, you'll find nearly none. Those images showing great swords almost invariably show them with grips only just long enough to facilitate the use of two hands. Great swords with short grips are just as representative of long swords of this period as those with more massive grips. If, as Peter says, we are interested in historical accuracy that must include swords whose grips are outside of our modern notion of what a great sword grip should be like.

There were undoubtedly medieval warriors with large hands who wielded great swords that had shorter grips. That they would have had to do so argues in support of the idea that there must have been a way to comfortably grip the sword. Gripping the pommel with the left hand is certainly one possibility; holding both hands closely placed together on the grip is another.
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