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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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 Posted: Sun 09 Jan, 2005 11:57 pm Post subject: Re: Potentially dumb question |
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| Eric Spitler wrote: | This is likely a dumb and crazy question, but to anyone who knows, could you plausibly do Liechtenauer with that new Crecy? I know that's not what it's for, but is it at all feasible?
Thanx! |
Why is that a crazy question?
IŽd say that it is pretty much exactly swords like this that Liechtenauer and his contemporaries were using.
My thought initially was that the sword named Talhoffer I should be called "Ringeck" or "Liechtenauer" and the Talhoffer III should be called "Fiore". This is to emphasise the fact that this is most probably the type of sword these guys were primarily referring to in their manuals. (...if you take into considertion halfswording and othr such techniques that include gripping the blade).
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jan, 2005 1:05 am Post subject: Re: Claaaymoooore!!! |
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| Mark Moore wrote: | Bravo, Albion. But, did I hear 'more models' coming soon? One word......and if you remember any of my previous posts, you know what it is........CLAYMORE. The Chieftain will be fabulous, I know, but it ain't no claymore. Or, should I say, Claidheam da Laimh. ( I prolly misspelled the hell outta that.) Just think of it........a blade as long as most of your swords entire length, bronze crossguard with quatrefoil terminals a foot wide, a two stage leatherbound grip, a bronze wheel pommel with a tang block...........and you could name your price..........because people like me would buy them. Claymore. Claymore. Claymore.....................................................  mcm. |
Hmm?
What do you mean the Chieftain is not a Claymore?
Could you explain?
IŽd say it is a rather good example of what an early (15th C) Claymore could have looked like. A big one.
It is not as big as later 16th and 17th types. (Big = long)
Those are the ones that have become synonymous with the word Claymore, but that is the late development of these swords. They did not have bronze fittings though. That is a modern popular misconception.
Iron was the material of choice.
In some happy future when Abion gets other milling facilities that allowes blades of a total length of 160 cm to be milled such swords are possible. Not for the moment, though.
The best I can offer is the Chieftain.
Look around at early represeantations of these weapons and youŽll see it is not very far off.
...or perhaps even spot on?  
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jan, 2005 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| Alexi Goranov wrote: | | Anton de Vries wrote: | | Alexi Goranov wrote: |
Doesn't "The Late 15th Century Bastard Sword" fall in that category. It is a XIVa much like the Talhoffer swords and the Agincourt, even though the blade profiles are somewhat different with the Talhoffer swords being less wide at the hilt.
Alexi |
Almost, but it's 3"-5" too short for my taste. Can't say I like the Bastard's looks either. That's not secondary though, as long as the sword works well. ( Bashing expensive armor  ) |
I agree. I do prefer the looks of the Agincourt blade to that of the 15c Bastard sword (which in profile looks identical to the Calstellan and Mercenary). But that's personal preferences in the aesthetics department.
Alexi |
This is interesting actually.
There are quite a few of these rather short bastard swords surviving. Many XVa swords that you can see today are not that long in the blade. Then there are those that are slimmer and longer.
I think they were made for different situations.
It would be interesting to hear students of historical fencing try out the two types and see what inherent qualities and diferences there are. When approacing historical sword techniques, it might be a good idea to start from what types are surviving and see how techniques applies with these weapons.
If you choose one type of sword because of personal preference aspects of the art are bound to remain hidden and unappreciated.
Thois does not apply to collecting, of course. Only to the serious study of historical swordsmanship.
The shorter sword has some things in favor in tight spots.
It is also better suited for single hand use.
-if that is a benefit? I donŽt know?
Perhaps the real characters of these weapons are revealed when wielding them while wearing armour?
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Anton de Vries
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jan, 2005 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| Peter Johnsson wrote: | [
If you choose one type of sword because of personal preference aspects of the art are bound to remain hidden and unappreciated.
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You have a very convincing *point* there of course. I'll try the Bastard.
Any idea what kind of delivery times we can expect when ordering a Squire Line sword?
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Gary Grzybek
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jan, 2005 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| Peter Johnsson wrote: | | Joe Fults wrote: | Thanks for introducting all the German stuff. I really like the Talhoffer I and III and the German Bastard I.
Someday if you guys get in the mood to make even more ambitious plans than it already seems like you have made, I'd love to see this one brought to life (again) too. |
Thats pretty much what the top one of the German bastards is actually.
It might even turn out to get a cross with flat arms instead of round as I sketched. WeŽll see it depends on a few aspect of production methods yet unresolved.
Otherwise it is exacly the same type of hilt. It differs only in details.
The sword that was the inspiration for the one I made and is shown in the photo is the sword that is the basis for the new XIX bastard blade design.
It is also the sword that is the main inspiration for the German bastard I.
I wantd to keep the fluted pommel of the original sword as that is such a typical thing to find on these weapons.
The cross is of a very common type youŽll find on many of these swords.
I know that drawing is a bit fuzzy, but that might be as well since the final design is not decided for yet. If you allow for adjustments and variations the sword in the photo could be a concept pic for the German Bastard I as well... |
Hi Peter,
With all due respect.....please don't change the guard on the German Bastard sword I !!!!!! 
I've seen several examples of this style in museums and it's what attracts me to them the most aside from the fluted pommels. The Next Gen line already has several examples of flattened guards so this type would be unique and very special
Sorry, I can't hold back,
Gary Grzybek
ARMA Northern N.J.
www.armastudy.org
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Michael Sigman
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jan, 2005 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| Michael Sigman wrote: | | Nathan Robinson wrote: | | Thanks, Mike. Tha'ts cool of you. So, no introductory pricing to light a fire under our butts on these, right? |
Not sure right now. They just went up today and it was crazy at work -- so I did not really get a chance to ask Howy. I will get back to you guys for sure on Monday. |
We do not have any kind of intro pricing this time around. We do have the collector's club that preorders will apply too.
Mike Sigman
Albion Swords
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jan, 2005 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| Anton de Vries wrote: | | Peter Johnsson wrote: | [
If you choose one type of sword because of personal preference aspects of the art are bound to remain hidden and unappreciated.
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You have a very convincing *point* there of course. I'll try the Bastard.
Any idea what kind of delivery times we can expect when ordering a Squire Line sword? |
IŽm glad you are concidering the 15th C Bastard.
All such matters as availability and delivery time is best to discuss directly with Mike.
He will treat you well.
As there seems to be an insatiable need among the WMA practitioners for good sturdy sparring weapons, we are thinking about how to best meet that demand.
The 15th C bastard sword of the Squire Line will work in sparring, although it first of all is meant to fill the role of a blunt entry level sword for beginning collectors, with sparring as second priority and cutting (after possible sharpening) a third priority.
I can see the need for a longer sparring sword in the Squire line of roughly the same type as the "Talhoffer" in the NG line.
There is nothing decided yet, but we might present some further additions to the Squire line later on, specifically to satisfy the need for sparring.
The way I understand it is that WMA practitioners primarily have a need for the following five types of sparrng swords:
-Single hand medieval (for sword and buckler I:33 type)
-Longsword type XVa or slim XVIa/XVIIIb (Talhoffer, Ringeck, Fiore-style)
-16th C C&T light medium to long blade, not too wide. (Marozzo, Silver swordplay)
-Messer-type short sword.
-Rapier
-Also my favourite: a historically correct training longsword.
I hope to see the Squire line include sturdy swords specifically for WMA sparring along those lines sometime in the (not too distant?) future. The Squire line will never include many varitions and sub types. It will always be a good selection of basic types, made to allow for a tight budget.
When designing sparring swords and swords for stage fighting you will have to make a compromize between three qualitites:
-A sword looking exactly like an original.
-A sword of correct weight and heft.
-A sword that is safe to use.
You can have one or two of these in a sparring weapon, but not all three at the same level.
Usually youŽll see swords that make an atempt to look something like originals, but that have added mass in the edges to make them safe. This results in weapons that are too heavy.
Another route to follow is to make the swords slighly undersize to allow for added thickness in the edges while keeping the weight down. This is a popular method among those stage sword makers that are of high repute.
Or you will have to keep the thickening of the edges as slight as possible and count on the practitioners being aware of this in their training.
Yet another route is to choose the right types of weapons that by themselves are well suited for being turned into safe blunts. This aspect varies between different sword types.
By slightly exaggerating the depth and width of fullers and profile taper it is then possible to make a reasonable compromise between looks and safe performance while keeping good handling characteristics.
Designing safe sparring tools is a very different task than designing sharp swords.
As practitioner it is a good to be aware of this. You can never expect a blunt safe sparring tool to have exactly the same characteristics as a sharp weapon. It is possible to get close, but it can never be the same.
Last edited by Peter Johnsson on Mon 10 Jan, 2005 8:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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Alexi Goranov
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jan, 2005 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| Peter Johnsson wrote: |
This is interesting actually.
There are quite a few of these rather short bastard swords surviving. Many XVa swords that you can see today are not that long in the blade. Then there are those that are slimmer and longer.
I think they were made for different situations.
It would be interesting to hear students of historical fencing try out the two types and see what inherent qualities and diferences there are. When approacing historical sword techniques, it might be a good idea to start from what types are surviving and see how techniques applies with these weapons.
If you choose one type of sword because of personal preference aspects of the art are bound to remain hidden and unappreciated.
Thois does not apply to collecting, of course. Only to the serious study of historical swordsmanship.
The shorter sword has some things in favor in tight spots.
It is also better suited for single hand use.
-if that is a benefit? I donŽt know?
Perhaps the real characters of these weapons are revealed when wielding them while wearing armour? |
Good points. As I mentioned, my preference for the longer, slimmer blade is based on looks alone. It is easy to imagine that the different length and profile taper (mass??) will make these swords different beasts in terms of their performance. I'd love to hear detailed performance comparisons of these two blade types (agincourt and castellan) once the agincourt and company become realized.
One of the concerns about the "castellan" and the 15c Bastard sword was that they are too wide to be grasped comfortably during half-swording. Is that the case? I'd imagine that they are fine for such techniques, but without holding them I can only guess.
Alexi
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jan, 2005 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| Alexi Goranov wrote: | Good points. As I mentioned, my preference for the longer, slimmer blade is based on looks alone. It is easy to imagine that the different length and profile taper (mass??) will make these swords different beasts in terms of their performance. I'd love to hear detailed performance comparisons of these two blade types (agincourt and castellan) once the agincourt and company become realized.
One of the concerns about the "castellan" and the 15c Bastard sword was that they are too wide to be grasped comfortably during half-swording. Is that the case? I'd imagine that they are fine for such techniques, but without holding them I can only guess.
Alexi |
A shorter sword tend to feel more quick and lievly than a longer weapon.
The shorter sword will also demand another style of swordplay than the longer sword. You will need to get in closer with all what that implies.
The long XVa used in "Agincourt" and "Talhoffer" will be quick and agile, but exacltly how it will compare to the Castellan/15th C Bastard is best to wait and see when these swords are completed. I donŽt think the long XVa will feel much slower, but the greater length will be a noticeable factor in the feel of these blades. Perhaps the longer blade will feel more "natural" in halfswording even if it is possible to use the shorter XVa like that as well...?
The Castellan is indeed possible to use in halfswording. It is narrow enough where you tend to grasp it. Its relative "shortness" is here a bigger factor for how, when and if youŽll want to use this sword in halfswording. It would depend on the situation, I guess.
In the NG line it is the Castellan and the Landgraf/Sempach that are designed to allow for halfswording. Now followed by the new long XVa.
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Eric Spitler
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jan, 2005 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Potentially dumb question |
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| Peter Johnsson wrote: |
Why is that a crazy question?
IŽd say that it is pretty much exactly swords like this that Liechtenauer and his contemporaries were using.
My thought initially was that the sword named Talhoffer I should be called "Ringeck" or "Liechtenauer" and the Talhoffer III should be called "Fiore". This is to emphasise the fact that this is most probably the type of sword these guys were primarily referring to in their manuals. (...if you take into considertion halfswording and othr such techniques that include gripping the blade). |
Excellent! I just seem to see all XVs, XVIIs, and XIXs associated with the tradition, I didn't know if the Crecy was too "war sword"ish 
Thanks!
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Gary Grzybek
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jan, 2005 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| Peter Johnsson wrote: | | Alexi Goranov wrote: | Good points. As I mentioned, my preference for the longer, slimmer blade is based on looks alone. It is easy to imagine that the different length and profile taper (mass??) will make these swords different beasts in terms of their performance. I'd love to hear detailed performance comparisons of these two blade types (agincourt and castellan) once the agincourt and company become realized.
One of the concerns about the "castellan" and the 15c Bastard sword was that they are too wide to be grasped comfortably during half-swording. Is that the case? I'd imagine that they are fine for such techniques, but without holding them I can only guess.
Alexi |
A shorter sword tend to feel more quick and lievly than a longer weapon.
The shorter sword will also demand another style of swordplay than the longer sword. You will need to get in closer with all what that implies.
The long XVa used in "Agincourt" and "Talhoffer" will be quick and agile, but exacltly how it will compare to the Castellan/15th C Bastard is best to wait and see when these swords are completed. I donŽt think the long XVa will feel much slower, but the greater length will be a noticeable factor in the feel of these blades. Perhaps the longer blade will feel more "natural" in halfswording even if it is possible to use the shorter XVa like that as well...?
The Castellan is indeed possible to use in halfswording. It is narrow enough where you tend to grasp it. Its relative "shortness" is here a bigger factor for how, when and if youŽll want to use this sword in halfswording. It would depend on the situation, I guess.
In the NG line it is the Castellan and the Landgraf/Sempach that are designed to allow for halfswording. Now followed by the new long XVa. |
Hi Peter,
As a practitioner I can attest to the idea that half sword work feels a bit better with a longer blade. Much of this has to do with leverage while in the bind since you can keep your hands futher apart. This all of course depends on what your doing and in some cases the shorter blade may be an advantage. I'd imagine it could allow for more control in some situations. These are things worthy of experimentation if one has the resources :-)
Gary Grzybek
ARMA Northern N.J.
www.armastudy.org
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Jeremiah Swanger
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jan, 2005 10:10 am Post subject: Questions on the NexGen part Deux... |
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1) The Talhoffer-- that wouldn't happen to be a Type 10 guard, would it?
2) The XIX's-- I can't tell from the sketches, but is that a short fuller? Or is it a long fuller with an interruption about 1/2 way down the blade?
3) Blade similarities-- Do the Hospitaler and Ritter share the same blade? Do the Castellan and Mercenary share the same blade?
4) Regarding your XV's and XVa's, do they have the standard flattened-diamond cross-section? Or do they have that 15th-century deeply-hollowed cross-section (Think of a XIX cross-section, but with a sudden, hollow-ground spine instead of a fuller)? Regarding the former, are the four sides flat, or are they slightly concave?
"Rhaegar fought nobly.
Rhaegar fought valiantly.
Rhaegar fought honorably.
And Rhaegar died."
- G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jan, 2005 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| Peter Johnsson wrote: | | Joe Fults wrote: | Thanks for introducting all the German stuff. I really like the Talhoffer I and III and the German Bastard I.
Someday if you guys get in the mood to make even more ambitious plans than it already seems like you have made, I'd love to see this one brought to life (again) too. |
Thats pretty much what the top one of the German bastards is actually.
It might even turn out to get a cross with flat arms instead of round as I sketched. WeŽll see it depends on a few aspect of production methods yet unresolved.
Otherwise it is exacly the same type of hilt. It differs only in details.
The sword that was the inspiration for the one I made and is shown in the photo is the sword that is the basis for the new XIX bastard blade design.
It is also the sword that is the main inspiration for the German bastard I.
I wantd to keep the fluted pommel of the original sword as that is such a typical thing to find on these weapons.
The cross is of a very common type youŽll find on many of these swords.
I know that drawing is a bit fuzzy, but that might be as well since the final design is not decided for yet. If you allow for adjustments and variations the sword in the photo could be a concept pic for the German Bastard I as well... |
I thought it might be but I could not be sure.
"The goal shouldnt be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jan, 2005 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| Gary Grzybek wrote: | With all due respect.....please don't change the guard on the German Bastard sword I !!!!!!
I've seen several examples of this style in museums and it's what attracts me to them the most aside from the fluted pommels. The Next Gen line already has several examples of flattened guards so this type would be unique and very special
Sorry, I can't hold back, |
Peter,
With all due respect due...please don't listen to Gary!!!
"The goal shouldnt be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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Gary Grzybek
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jan, 2005 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| Joe Fults wrote: | | Gary Grzybek wrote: | With all due respect.....please don't change the guard on the German Bastard sword I !!!!!!
I've seen several examples of this style in museums and it's what attracts me to them the most aside from the fluted pommels. The Next Gen line already has several examples of flattened guards so this type would be unique and very special
Sorry, I can't hold back, |
Peter,
With all due respect due...please don't listen to Gary!!! |
Oh no...I've been met with ressistance 
Tonight I shall begin construction on my mind alteration ray. With any luck it's power will reach Sweden before it's too late 
Gary Grzybek
ARMA Northern N.J.
www.armastudy.org
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jan, 2005 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| Gary Grzybek wrote: | | Joe Fults wrote: | | Gary Grzybek wrote: | With all due respect.....please don't change the guard on the German Bastard sword I !!!!!!
I've seen several examples of this style in museums and it's what attracts me to them the most aside from the fluted pommels. The Next Gen line already has several examples of flattened guards so this type would be unique and very special
Sorry, I can't hold back, |
Peter,
With all due respect due...please don't listen to Gary!!! |
Oh no...I've been met with ressistance
Tonight I shall begin construction on my mind alteration ray. With any luck it's power will reach Sweden before it's too late |
Ah!
This is a siuation I really like!
Either way, I am bound to make one of you disappointed!
Mmmmm
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jan, 2005 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: Questions on the NexGen part Deux... |
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| Jeremiah Swanger wrote: | 1) The Talhoffer-- that wouldn't happen to be a Type 10 guard, would it?
2) The XIX's-- I can't tell from the sketches, but is that a short fuller? Or is it a long fuller with an interruption about 1/2 way down the blade?
3) Blade similarities-- Do the Hospitaler and Ritter share the same blade? Do the Castellan and Mercenary share the same blade?
4) Regarding your XV's and XVa's, do they have the standard flattened-diamond cross-section? Or do they have that 15th-century deeply-hollowed cross-section (Think of a XIX cross-section, but with a sudden, hollow-ground spine instead of a fuller)? Regarding the former, are the four sides flat, or are they slightly concave? |
1) ItŽs a style 11 guard: straight with knobbed ends. It is basically a longer version of the guard on the Castellan.
2) Yes, that is a short fuller. The section is hexagonal (apart from ricasso, of course) with a fuller in the upper third. Just like what you could expect on a type XIX blade.
3) Yes, the same blade on both swords in both cases.
4) The section is a sturdy diamond section. The edge bevels have a very, very slight convexity towards the edge, but are otherwise perfectly flat. This is a pretty nice and dramatic section when done right, actually.
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Gary Grzybek
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jan, 2005 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Peter Johnsson wrote: | | Gary Grzybek wrote: | | Joe Fults wrote: | | Gary Grzybek wrote: | With all due respect.....please don't change the guard on the German Bastard sword I !!!!!!
I've seen several examples of this style in museums and it's what attracts me to them the most aside from the fluted pommels. The Next Gen line already has several examples of flattened guards so this type would be unique and very special
Sorry, I can't hold back, |
Peter,
With all due respect due...please don't listen to Gary!!! |
Oh no...I've been met with ressistance
Tonight I shall begin construction on my mind alteration ray. With any luck it's power will reach Sweden before it's too late |
Ah!
This is a siuation I really like!
Either way, I am bound to make one of you disappointed!
Mmmmm |
Peter, did I mention what a great artist and bladesmith you are?
Can I send you some scotch or wine?
No, it's not a bribe.......really I swear
Gary Grzybek
ARMA Northern N.J.
www.armastudy.org
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Howard Waddell
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jan, 2005 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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Introducing -- The Mercenary...
This very sword could be yours if you are the first caller to reach Mike...
Price: $550, choice of grip color as usual (the grip will have one riser in the center).
Best,
Howy
Attachment: 34.65 KB
Albion Swords Ltd
http://albion-swords.com
http://filmswords.com
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Jeremiah Swanger
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| Posted: Mon 10 Jan, 2005 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: Questions on the NexGen part Deux... |
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Hiya Peter,
Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post.
| Peter Johnsson wrote: |
1) ItŽs a style 11 guard: straight with knobbed ends. It is basically a longer version of the guard on the Castellan.
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Then I certainly look forward to seeing it. I consider the Castellan the best-looking of the 15th-Century swords in your current completed lineup, so I'm delighted to see some similarities an the Talhoffer, which I'm eagerly anticipating.
| Peter Johnsson wrote: |
2) Yes, that is a short fuller. The section is hexagonal (apart from ricasso, of course) with a fuller in the upper third. Just like what you could expect on a type XIX blade.
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That's what I thought. I just wanted to be sure.
| Peter Johnsson wrote: |
3) Yes, the same blade on both swords in both cases.
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Nice! I absolutely love the Ritter's "hybrid" XI/XIIIb blade. While I prefer the cocked-hat pommel, I realize it isn't for everyone.
| Peter Johnsson wrote: |
4) The section is a sturdy diamond section. The edge bevels have a very, very slight convexity towards the edge, but are otherwise perfectly flat. This is a pretty nice and dramatic section when done right, actually. |
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I thought that "concave" meant "curving inward" whereas "convex" meant "curving outward," though I could be mistaken. If you meant the sides curved slightly outward, then that would be a nice, beefy, rigid blade. You could probably puncture some mild steel sheet with something like that.
"Rhaegar fought nobly.
Rhaegar fought valiantly.
Rhaegar fought honorably.
And Rhaegar died."
- G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire
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