[Sean Flynt]

I'd appreciate comments on the following, especially if you can provide correction and historic examples:

I can find lots of examples of 16th and 17th c. burgonets (especially in the albums here), but still haven't been able to pin down a date or origin for this replica. Looks to me to be German of the third quarter of the 16th c. Would y'all concur? The more enclosing cheek pieces seem to be a relatively late development, leading on into the so-called death's head helms of the 17th c. The replica's skull is octagonal, which is a departure from the more common quadragonal form. Any photos of original octagonal skulls? The replica is of 18 ga. steel.

Am I correct in assuming that, historically, a burgonet of this type would have had a padded leather or cloth liner. How thick would that have been? Any photos of a liner (other than this one: http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/1911.html )? The replica's cheek pieces are secured by a large screw, making the pieces removable to form a fully open helm. Any evidence of that being done in period?

[Allan Senefelder]

Sean the only things i've been able to find that come close are on pages 40 and 41 in "Imperial Austria, Treasures of Art Arms&Armour from The State of Styria" and on page 168 of "Europaisshe Helme" but both are only lossley similar (none has the scalloped edge and most are four faccetted(sp) skulls but Imperial Austria has several that look to be six. All lack the knob on the top. Is this the one MRL used to refer to as a Scotch Bonnet Burgeonette?

[Sean Flynt]

Thanks for the info, Allan! Yep, that's the MRL Scottish B. It's currently on closeout...and now in my collection as a result. Like you, I first turned to the Imperial Austria book (lovely!) and saw plenty of the four-facetted helms, as well as some with other features of this one. One of the burgonets in the wonderful albums here ( http://www.myArmoury.com/albums/photo/1875.html ) features a top knob, so that's one more authentic feature I can check off on my Historical Plausability List. This helm supposedly is copied from one in a private collection, so it may be relatively faithful to the original in general features.

[Russ Thomas]

Sean,

There is a similar example in the Royal Armouries collection,possibly Greenwich workmanship c.1525-50.It does however, have a more enclosed opening at the front with a grille, though it does also have the faceted skull and the ball finial at the apex.I will see if I can find a catalogue number for you.


Regards as ever,

Russ

[Russ Thomas]

Sean,

The helmet that I was thinking of is: RATL.1V.166. Unfortunately, I cannot post pictures at the moment,but it is illustrated in the "European Armour in the Tower of London" book by A.R.Dufty 1968.If you have problems locating this please get in touch and I will see what I can do.The example that I was thinking of is more enclosed than the one that you have illustrated,but the skull is substancially the same.

There is also a very good photograph of a quilted helmet liner at the rear of "Arms and armour of the Medieval Knight",by David Edge and John Miles Paddock,which, if my memory servers me correctly, comes from either # 158 or 188 (?),ca.1530 and 1560 respectively.

I hope that this helps.

Regards as ever,

Russ

NB. 158 & 188 are both in the Wallace collection,London,not RATL.

[Russ Thomas]

Sean,

Looking at the picture that I have of 1V.166, the helmet skull is actually octagonal on this example.Also instead of cheek guards it has a bevor ,or buffe,with a grille, mounted klappvisor style on a single ,central,fixing above the sights.This is fitted with spring catches at the sides of the buffe.Unfortunately, the gorget plates are missing from the RA. example.I may have a picture of this helmet on CD,if so I will send it to you later on.

Hope that this is of some interest.

Regards as ever,

Russ

[Sean Flynt]

Thanks, Russ! Do I remember correctly that Henry VIII populated Greenwich with German armourers? If so, then a helm could be of a distinctively German style but of English origin? How does one tell the difference? Makers marks?

[Allan Senefelder]

Sean theres a picture of the helm Russ's talking about on page 121 of " The Royal Armoury At Greenwich 1515-1649 A Hiistory Of Its Technology" (ISBN 0 948092 22 X ).
Initially Henry invited two groups over into his service one from Milan and one from Brussels. Neither seems to have worked out as planed so he next invited a group of Almains(Germans and Flemings) to work under Martin van Royne. Greenwich seems to have spent the 16th century under German masters , Martin van Royne, Erasmus Kirkener, John Kelte, and Jacob Halder .

[Sean Flynt]

I'm going to need a new bookcase.

[Alexi Goranov]

[Steve Grisetti]

[Russ Thomas]

Sean,

As regards the masters that have been mentioned,Martin van Royne may have been born in Brussels,Erasmus Kirkenar was German as was Jacob Halder,but John kelte was English.
As a rule Greenwich armour was not stamped,however, there are I believe some pieces that bear a stamp that may well be that of Martin Van Royne before he entered the kings service in about 1515.
The Greenwich style is very distinctive,though there are occassionally some problems ,most notably with the armour of Sir John Smythe (RA.II.84),ca.1585,which has never been adequately identified.Possibly elements of the harness are of Greenwich manufacture and other elements are of Augsburg make,though the decoration appears to be have been done in Augsburg,or possibly in England ,but by Augsburg craftsmen ? This particular harness poses a real conundrum.

Regards as ever,

Russ

Allan,

Thankyou for pointing out the picture in the Greenwich book.I had totally overlooked that tome.

[Allan Senefelder]

Actually the thanks goes to you Russ. It was your verbal description of the helm in the Tower that got me thinking"where've I seen it,where've I seen it" till that book popped into my head.

[Sean Flynt]

Russ has forwarded these photos of two Greenwich helms of the last half of the 16th c. Both have features of the repro in question. There's the octagonal skull and topknob, so that's confirmation of the authenticity of two more of the repro helm's features. The way the tops of the cheek pieces wrap around the edge of the peak in the second burgonet also demonstrates that this is an authentic detail (it can be seen on many other examples, too). Next, I want to find examples of similar cheek pieces (which I'm sure I've seen SOMEWHERE--Graz? Keinbusch? Vienna? York?

Many thanks, Russ!