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Stephen Curtin
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 Posted: Sat 31 May, 2014 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Jason O C wrote: | As far as a lace securing helm to coif, I've had a thought. Assuming that you would be already wearing your coif before donning a helm, how would you weave the lace through the coif and helm while they are on your head? Seems at worst impossible, and at best impractical.
Jason |
I had not thought of this, but now that I do, it seems an unlikely way to tie a helm to your head.
Éirinn go Brách
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Sat 31 May, 2014 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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A simple strap tied beneath the chin would work. No need to weave it through the mail. Although not a cervelliere, the sculpture from St. Justina, Padua is clear.
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ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Mart Shearer
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Jason O C
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| Posted: Sat 31 May, 2014 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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Mart. When I spoke of weaving a lace through both mail and helm, I was referring to Stephen's thaughts about this image
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4832/7939/
As I said, I don't see this as a viable means of securing a helm to ones head. I don't see how someone could weave a lace through the holes in the helm, and the links in the coif, while they are on ones head. Thanks for the additional images of helms with chin straps. The St Maurice one is particularly nice.
Jason
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Tue 03 Jun, 2014 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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I got the tightest zoom the UBH has, and I think those might be a lace holding on the aventail rather than the more known vervelles. It seems to me the red lace also appears over the left eye. Thoughts?
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ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Mart Shearer
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Stephen Curtin
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| Posted: Wed 04 Jun, 2014 3:40 am Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | | I got the tightest zoom the UBH has, and I think those might be a lace holding on the aventail rather than the more known vervelles. It seems to me the red lace also appears over the left eye. Thoughts? |
Yes I believe in this instance those are lace holes, and not rivets. I probably should have mentioned the red line between the dots, but I thought it was fairly visible.
@ Jason. As the coif/aventail, in this image, is separate from any mail hauberk. I don't see a problem with lacing mail to helm and then put them both on the head as a single unit. Now we do see similar helms from this time period, over coifs which are integral to the hauberk. In these cases, I don't think this lacing method would be practical, for the reason you mentioned above.
Éirinn go Brách
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Stephen Curtin
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| Posted: Wed 04 Jun, 2014 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | | And three examples from the late 14th century Très Belles Heures de Notre Dame de Jean de Berry, BNF NAL 3093. Of course these don't guarantee it's how it was done in earlier decades. |
Something to consider is that these helms, worn by lower class soldiers, in the late 14th century, very well could have belonged to wealthier knights from a few decades before.
Éirinn go Brách
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Jason O C
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| Posted: Wed 04 Jun, 2014 4:23 am Post subject: |
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Thanks again Mart and Stephen. You've both been very helpful. I still can't decide which method I would use, if I ever get the funds to commission one of these early bascinets.
Jason
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Wed 04 Jun, 2014 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| Stephen Curtin wrote: | | Yes I believe in this instance those are lace holes, and not rivets. I probably should have mentioned the red line between the dots, but I thought it was fairly visible. |
Some of us have older eyes than others.  A little magnification is good, sometimes.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Stephen Curtin
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| Posted: Wed 04 Jun, 2014 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: |
Some of us have older eyes than others. A little magnification is good, sometimes. |
Hey Mart. Nobody here would know this, but I actually have a pretty severe visual impairment. I have to hold a magnifier up to the screen of my smartphone in order to be able to use the internet. So I'm fairly used to zooming in as far as my phone will allow.
Éirinn go Brách
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Jason O C
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| Posted: Fri 13 Jun, 2014 4:33 am Post subject: |
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| Stephen Curtin wrote: |
Something to consider is that these helms, worn by lower class soldiers, in the late 14th century, very well could have belonged to wealthier knights from a few decades before. |
AFAIK this is true. There are examples of 14th century bascinets which originally had aventails, but, in the following century, were repurposed for use without. Meaning they probably had chin straps added.
Jason
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Jason O C
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| Posted: Fri 13 Jun, 2014 4:44 am Post subject: |
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http://effigiesandbrasses.com/975/3199/
This effigy shows the kind of helm I'm looking for. It also shows an aventail attached to the helm by vervelles. The man it depicts died in 1322, and fought at Bannockburn, so right up my alley time wise. The thing is, his equipment looks to me to be more like 1330-1340. I know that sometimes men's tombs weren't finished until years after there deaths, and their effigys show arms and armour from the time of the stone carving, and not the dead man's lifetime. So what do you guys think, is that the case with this effigy?
Jason
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Fri 13 Jun, 2014 10:25 am Post subject: |
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There are a number of effigies ascribed to Humphrey de Bohun (in fact there were 8 or 9 Bohuns of that name). There is a badly damaged effigy in Exeter cathedral, also linked to on the Effigies & Brasses page in a photographic record-
http://www.themcs.org/churches/Devonshire/Exe...2%2059.jpg
The 19th century drawing belongs to another effigy. Perhaps it's the painted Bohun in Hereford, possibly Humphrey de Bohun, 6th Earl of Hereford, 5th Earl of Essex (6 December 1309 – 15 October 1361)?
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3084676
Since the attribution is questionable, so is the dating.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Jason O C
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| Posted: Fri 13 Jun, 2014 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Mart. I suspect you're right. This effigy is probably miss-attributed to the Humphrey Dr Bohun who died in 1322.
Jason
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This is a standard topic
