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Mart Shearer
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 Posted: Sun 11 May, 2014 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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The image is a wall-painting from Dorfkirche Bochum Stiepel. The Czech site gives it a date of c. 1200, and the paintings are generally described as late 12th century. Are you certain this is lamellar rather than scale?
http://www.dorfkirche-bochum-stiepel.de/uploa...051_04.jpg
As for context, this appears to be one of Herod's soldiers in the Massacre of the Holy Innocents, as the next scene to the right appears to be the Flight into Egypt.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...17_ies.jpg
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sun 11 May, 2014 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | | The image is a wall-painting from Dorfkirche Bochum Stiepel. The Czech site gives it a date of c. 1200, and the paintings are generally described as late 12th century. Are you certain this is lamellar rather than scale? |
It is scale, not lamellar. You can't make sleeves like that from lamellar.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sun 11 May, 2014 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for that. I forgot about Type VI.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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O. Stockhaus
Location: Stockholm, Sweden Joined: 29 Jan 2014
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Mon 12 May, 2014 12:41 am Post subject: |
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| Baard H wrote: |
Actually it isn't that archaic as one might think. At least one of the armours from Visby was a lamellar that had been converted to look and function like a coat of plates, complete with cloth covering, rivets and plate shoulders (memory escapes me on the other lamellars).
Yes, because of the rigid overlapping plates the lamellar protects against blunt trauma much better than the "soft" maille. This is probably one of the reasons it's so popular amongst reenactors. However, due to the need of leather laces being exposed along the entire armour, it's only a matter of time until one of them snaps or get cut apart, and then it's rather easily penetrated.
Maille and lamellar worn together would be like maille and CoP wich because a popular combo in the middle ages. There is one drawback to that, weight. Considering the relative light weight of most infantry at the time (in possession of neither lamellar or maille) and the large shields of the time, you have to think about wether it would be worth sacrificing mobility and stamina for the extra defence. |
You make a good point about both the extra weight and the durability issue. However, one can not completely rule out its' use considering the general availability and cost of armour at the time. It was still better than nothing.
You are right of course about the Visby lamellar being converted into an early form of brigandine, but the shape of the plates and the general layout still has very much in common with the finds in Birka. It could of course have been constructed this way, but it could just as well be older plates being reused. In my opinion both theses supports the idea of lamellar use in early medieval Sweden.
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Márk György Kis
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| Posted: Mon 12 May, 2014 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| O. Stockhaus wrote: |
but the shape of the plates and the general layout still has very much in common with the finds in Birka.
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Both are made of metal and have holes in them. I can find no more similarities. Not in shapes nor in hole distribution.
| O. Stockhaus wrote: |
In my opinion both theses supports the idea of lamellar use in early medieval Sweden.
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These are merely theories. Small-plate armours (mostly scale) are not that hard to come by hundreds of years AFTER the viking age. We have no pictorial evidence, no written source, and besides the birka plates, nothing.
Curious, but we have finds from vendel age to the end of viking age so many, we could only store them in dozens of containers. But nothing about small plate armour.
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Mon 12 May, 2014 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: |
Thanks for that. I forgot about Type VI. |
However, Figure 1 shows Thordeman's attempted reconstruction of what the lamellar armor originally looked like, not how it appeared during the battle in 1361--with row-fragments riveted inside a shell, mimicking a pair of plates.
One of the problems with depictions of lamellar armor in the West is that it isn't proof of use, but of knowledge of the type. There's a miniature in a French Bible moralisée, Cod. 2554 now in the ÖNB in Vienna which might show lamellar. Does this mean they used it, or only that they were familiar with examples after the Crusades? Likewise, is it an attempt to render the "other" or "wicked", or Byzantine-Romans or Saracens?
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4748/10664/
Another difficulty lies in how to interpret oblong rectangles. A second miniature which may show a gambeson or jaserant over mail has similar rectangles to those shown on the Broddetorp Golden Altar. Without color, it is even more difficult to say whether the Broddetorp example is supposed to be interpreted as lamellar or not.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4748/10688/
A third problem is in distinguishing scales from lames. A number of 12th and 13th century manuscripts from Bavaria (Bamberg and Regensburg) also show some sort of plates over mail. (I believe these likely represent scales.)
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4688/12041/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4999/15569/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4999/15571/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4999/15572/
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ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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