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Marc Lauterbach





Joined: 22 Jan 2010

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Wed 09 Apr, 2014 1:04 pm    Post subject: Ring-Hilt Spathae?         Reply with quote

Hi all,

I'm curious, does anyone have any knowledge of the timeframe occupied by ring-hilted spathae in period? I am NOT referring to ring-pommeled Migration-Era swords, but of swords that have a ring for their pommel. As best as I can ascertain, this is a Sarmatian style and first appears around the late 2nd century AD, but do we have an end date? Thanks!

See example:



Thanks!
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Peter Johnsson
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Location: Storvreta, Sweden
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PostPosted: Wed 09 Apr, 2014 11:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A quick look in Miks´ "Studien zur römischen Schwertbewaffnung in der Kaiserziet" puts a period to late 2nd and 3rd century as period of use for the ring pommeled swords.
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Martin Moser





Joined: 13 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Thu 10 Apr, 2014 12:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It seems to have been used especially by beneficiarii, i.e. soldier on special duty like policing, customs etc. Their gravestones and symbols often show the ring pommel sword. You can see it also on the chape I made a few years ago when you look closely:
http://sutor.jimdo.com/escapees/roman/thekenbeschlag-scabbard/

Cheers,
Martin

https://www.facebook.com/leatherworkthroughtheages/
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Márk György Kis





Joined: 02 Jul 2013

Posts: 25

PostPosted: Thu 10 Apr, 2014 12:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There were ring-hilted swords even in the times of Caesar...

Source: Miks
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Marc Lauterbach





Joined: 22 Jan 2010

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Thu 10 Apr, 2014 3:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the information! Any chance they could have gone into the 4th or 5th centuries? Thanks!
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William M




Location: Buckinghamshire , England
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PostPosted: Fri 11 Apr, 2014 3:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi, don't mean to be a stickler but would be nice if when you use my photos you reference or contact me.
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Mike Zielinski




Location: Lublin, Poland
Joined: 04 Oct 2010

Posts: 34

PostPosted: Sat 12 Apr, 2014 12:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello everyone Happy

These sword type is called "ringknaufschwert" in german mean 'ring-pommel sword'.
They were addicted to Sarmatians but in 2nd century AD that type of swords were known
from roman iconography (for example see "Rome and the Sword" by Simon James published in 2011).
What is very interesting we (archeologists) had some examples from Barbaricum - moslty from Germany
and one from Poland Big Grin Here it simple link to get more info about these sword type:

https://www.google.pl/search?client=opera&q=ringknaufschwert&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

To find more literature give me private message Wink

Regards,
Mike from Poland

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Matthew Bunker




Location: Somerset UK
Joined: 02 Apr 2009

Posts: 483

PostPosted: Sat 12 Apr, 2014 12:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Marc Lauterbach wrote:
Thanks for the information! Any chance they could have gone into the 4th or 5th centuries? Thanks!


No.

"If a Greek can do it, two Englishman certainly can !"
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Marc Lauterbach





Joined: 22 Jan 2010

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sat 12 Apr, 2014 2:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William M wrote:
Hi, don't mean to be a stickler but would be nice if when you use my photos you reference or contact me.


I'm sorry, it was literally the first image that came up when I was trying to find a picture of what I was talking about. Had I know it was yours, I surely would have given you the credit. Cheers.
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Marc Lauterbach





Joined: 22 Jan 2010

Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sat 12 Apr, 2014 2:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew Bunker wrote:
Marc Lauterbach wrote:
Thanks for the information! Any chance they could have gone into the 4th or 5th centuries? Thanks!


No.


Matt, that's a very definitive statement. Any chance I could get you to expound on that? Do you know the general dates of the archaeological examples of extant swords of this type? Not being sarcastic, but genuinely curious. Thanks!
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Márk György Kis





Joined: 02 Jul 2013

Posts: 25

PostPosted: Sun 13 Apr, 2014 5:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Checked Miks. For Roman context the definite timespan is the 2nd century. Everything before or after is questionable, though they are there.
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Shahril Dzulkifli




Location: Malaysia
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PostPosted: Mon 27 Oct, 2014 5:36 am    Post subject: Ring-Hilt Spathae?         Reply with quote

I myself never knew that a Sarmatian sword had been in service with Roman legionaries when they occupied Britain.
Picture below shows one recognizable ring-hilt spatha at the bottom of 5 long sword blades on display at the Archaeological Museum of Schloss Eggenberg in Graz, Austria.

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Elio Pestana




Location: France
Joined: 04 Aug 2020

Posts: 9

PostPosted: Fri 07 Apr, 2023 11:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Though i could be breaking a rule there (with how old the post is), i'd like to just add this in case someone re-discovers this thread much later :

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/366398645_ROMAN_RING-POMMELED_SWORD_FROM_CRVENO_POLE_N_MACEDONIA

It appears an example of such a sword was recently discovered in a Macedonian, which would imply this type of sword was not just a Sarmatian thing. It seems to be dated to the 2nd-3rd century BCE.
The article cites an article from a certain Biborski published in 1994-1995 that dates Roman examples of such swords to the 2nd century, separating them in either a spatha-like or a dagger-like category



 Attachment: 297.89 KB
SarmatianRingPommelSwords.PNG
A selection of Sarmatian ring pommel swords

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SarmatianRingPommelSwords2.PNG
More Sarmatian swords

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RomanRingPommelSwords.PNG
Roman examples here

 Attachment: 447.95 KB
MainzRingPommelSword.PNG
A sword of the Roman type recovered near Mainz

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Victor R.




Location: Klein, Texas
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sat 08 Apr, 2023 5:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thread necromancy doesn't break any rule that I'm aware of. You just may be labeled source(rer) of new information,
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