Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Sture Sword arrives Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next 
Author Message
Jason Elrod




Location: Winchester, VA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Likes: 48 pages
Reading list: 38 books

Posts: 717

PostPosted: Fri 31 Dec, 2004 11:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ Ellis wrote:
Thanks guys.

I tried some other things in the meantime including cobbling together my own version from an Arms and Armor blade and Erik Stevenson (spelling?) hilt components and managed to make a heck of a sword. However it still wasn't the same. This one is. I personally would have cleaned out my whole collection to buy it. Fortunately it didn't come to that I managed to hang on to all my Arms and Armor pieces which are the basis of my collection.


Ha! I'm glad to know that I'm not the only obsessive one. I love the Bayerische sword (XVIIIa.5 from Records) and have had Christian Fletcher put together two similar swords for me as well as owning A&A's Durer. All of them are very nice swords but it really isn't the same. Now if Albion would only produce the Bayerische then I'd be a happy happy but man.

Congrats on what I imagine is a "sword" dream come true.
View user's profile Send private message
Gary Grzybek




Location: Stillwater N.J.
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 559

PostPosted: Fri 31 Dec, 2004 11:52 am    Post subject: Re: I have never heard of this before         Reply with quote

Jesse Smithers wrote:
I knew I shouldn't have answered that question. Worried I made up the test myself. The test works for me to get an idea how it handles. That's it, nothing more. Also the test does not involve swinging it. Just holding it perfectly still for a second to see where the tip wants to go and how fast it wants to get there. It helps me test 'blade presence' I combine in my mind the dropping of the tip from holding the pommel and dropping of the tip from holding the guard.

Joel Whitmore wrote:
Would the Baron not move like "lightning" ? I think that depends on whose weilding it.


Exactly. If a 5' skinny guy holds a Baron and a 6' 6" weightlifter holds a Baron. They will get completely different impressions. All my test does is to help remove the person from the equation. Obviously I can't completely remove the person, but it helps alot.

Quote:
Does it have to move like lightning to be a good sword? That depends on what you define as "good"


Of course not. Just different handling. And yes it does depend on one's idea of good.

Quote:
Am I right in assuming that you are testing to see if the sword could be used well with one hand?


The test will give that information. It will also tell me how agile it will be with 2 hands. If the tip drops like a rock, the sword will definately be a 2 hander instead of a hand and a half. It also tells me how well it will handle with 2 hands. For instance, in a fight you never want to over commit. With the 'floater tip', I only have to worry about myself over committing. With the 'rock tip', I have to be aware of my momentum and the sword's too or I may stop and the sword doesn't which then pulls me to over commit. Neither sword is bad. It just takes different; techniques, self-awareness and follow through.

Quote:
Or are you simply testing to see if the sword has the right weight for you?


No. Purely for agility, blade presence, momentum.




I think what your trying to do is establish the balance point and "feel" of any given blade. Why not just hold the sword how you would if you were using it? Few techniques ever required holding the sword solely by the pommel. The only one that comes to mind is from Hans Talhoffer and is refered to as "the spring" which is a cut the the lower leg while springing out and releasing the right hand form the grip. The swords momentum through the cut would keep it tracking and not be affected by the balance point.

Grip the sword just behind the crossguard with your right hand and with your left hand, grip either the pommel or just in front of the pommel depending on desired leverage. Keep the point straight out in front of you and by using the leverage of your leading and trailing hand, lift and lower the point. This gives you the "feel" of the blades balance point and response. Other than going through various cuts, thrusts and guards it's the easiest way. The actual balance point can be determined by laying the blade flat across your fore finger. This varies depending on blade type but is commonly found about 4 inches past the guard.

A well balanced cutting sword should have a certain degree "blade presence" but still feel responsive and "lively"

Gary Grzybek
ARMA Northern N.J.
www.armastudy.org
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jesse Smithers





Joined: 29 Dec 2004

Posts: 17

PostPosted: Fri 31 Dec, 2004 2:04 pm    Post subject: Re: I have never heard of this before         Reply with quote

Gary Grzybek wrote:
I think what your trying to do is establish the balance point and "feel" of any given blade. Why not just hold the sword how you would if you were using it?


I don't have the sword. Russ Ellis has it. If Russ would send me the sword (overnight of course Big Grin ) and let me play with it, I wouldn't be asking silly questions. Big Grin Though I think Russ would have a problem with sending the sword he has been waiting for for 6 years, just so I can get the 'feel' of it. Big Grin Laughing Out Loud

Quote:
Grip the sword just behind the crossguard with your right hand and with your left hand, grip either the pommel or just in front of the pommel depending on desired leverage. Keep the point straight out in front of you and by using the leverage of your leading and trailing hand, lift and lower the point. This gives you the "feel" of the blades balance point and response. Other than going through various cuts, thrusts and guards it's the easiest way.


Yeh! we agree! When I have it in my hands, that is basically what I do.
View user's profile Send private message
Howard Waddell
Industry Professional



Location: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2003

Posts: 717

PostPosted: Fri 31 Dec, 2004 2:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ Ellis wrote:
I first saw a picture of this sword on Albion's website I believe back in 1998 or 1999. At the time they were just tentatively trying to figure out how to bring Peter Johnson's work to a mass market without having him pound out every piece personally. I emailed them at the time to find out how to get my hands on the pictured sword. Howy told me that he thought (optimistically) it would be a couple of years. It has been six but it was worth the wait.


Ok, Russ, so I am a little slow...

But, seriously, I view the Svante as a good representative of the sword company we have built -- and it took some time to get here -- with the talents not only of the incredible Peter Johnsson, but everyone here, from Leif who has learned how to make molds on his own, to Eric running the R&D, to Steve on the programming, to Jason and the complex hollowgrinding, and the amazing talents of John Gage, John Margeson and (soon again I hope) Tristan Waddington in the cutler shop.

The Albion side of the operation now really has a "showpiece" (that stands out even among the other incredible NextGen and Museum swords) to rival the Atlantean on the Film Swords side and the custom swords by Jody. The Svante has been our "Holy Grail" if you will, and to finally be at a place where we can faithfully make these is the realization of a dream.

We will never make or sell a lot of Svante swords, but it will always be there as a symbol of what we can do.

Amy and I are very proud to work with people that can reproduce such an amazing piece, in the midst of everything else they do every day.

Best,

Howy

Albion Swords Ltd
http://albion-swords.com
http://filmswords.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Gary Grzybek




Location: Stillwater N.J.
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 559

PostPosted: Fri 31 Dec, 2004 2:35 pm    Post subject: Re: I have never heard of this before         Reply with quote

Jesse Smithers wrote:
Gary Grzybek wrote:
I think what your trying to do is establish the balance point and "feel" of any given blade. Why not just hold the sword how you would if you were using it?


I don't have the sword. Russ Ellis has it. If Russ would send me the sword (overnight of course Big Grin ) and let me play with it, I wouldn't be asking silly questions. Big Grin Though I think Russ would have a problem with sending the sword he has been waiting for for 6 years, just so I can get the 'feel' of it. Big Grin Laughing Out Loud

Quote:
Grip the sword just behind the crossguard with your right hand and with your left hand, grip either the pommel or just in front of the pommel depending on desired leverage. Keep the point straight out in front of you and by using the leverage of your leading and trailing hand, lift and lower the point. This gives you the "feel" of the blades balance point and response. Other than going through various cuts, thrusts and guards it's the easiest way.


Yeh! we agree! When I have it in my hands, that is basically what I do.



Hey, it would certainly be neat if I could talk Mike into sending me one for my round table in the spring. The only problem would be that I may not send it back Razz

Dream on Gary Worried

Gary Grzybek
ARMA Northern N.J.
www.armastudy.org
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Russ Ellis
Industry Professional




Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Posts: 2,608

PostPosted: Fri 31 Dec, 2004 9:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jason Elrod wrote:
Russ Ellis wrote:
Thanks guys.

I tried some other things in the meantime including cobbling together my own version from an Arms and Armor blade and Erik Stevenson (spelling?) hilt components and managed to make a heck of a sword. However it still wasn't the same. This one is. I personally would have cleaned out my whole collection to buy it. Fortunately it didn't come to that I managed to hang on to all my Arms and Armor pieces which are the basis of my collection.


Ha! I'm glad to know that I'm not the only obsessive one. I love the Bayerische sword (XVIIIa.5 from Records) and have had Christian Fletcher put together two similar swords for me as well as owning A&A's Durer. All of them are very nice swords but it really isn't the same. Now if Albion would only produce the Bayerische then I'd be a happy happy but man.

Congrats on what I imagine is a "sword" dream come true.


Lol exactly. In fact my next quest (other then picking up at least two new Arms and Armor pieces that I've ordered) is the Xa.1 sword from Records of the Medieval Sword. Raven Armouries makes one and their wait is out two years... It's either that or find a domestic smith that can actually turn it out...

TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
View user's profile Send private message
Robert W. Betten




Location: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 150

PostPosted: Fri 31 Dec, 2004 10:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Congrats on the new sword, its definately an amazing piece, If I had $2500 spare I'd definately love that type of sword as an addition to the collection...the history of it definately is amazing.
*!*
"If the people we love are taken from us,
the way they live on is to never stop loving
them. Buildings burn, people die, but real
love is forever."
- Sarah 'The Crow'
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Björn Hellqvist
myArmoury Alumni


myArmoury Alumni

Location: Sweden
Joined: 19 Aug 2003

Posts: 723

PostPosted: Sat 01 Jan, 2005 7:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Congrats, Russ, on your new baby! I know you've lusted after that sword for years, and it sure is a most excellent sword. Whenever I'm at Peter's place, I handle his reconstruction, which is all the more remarkable because it is something like the sixth(!) sword he had ever made. The pic shows his reconstruction and the original side-by-side. (Please note that the forced perspective makes the original appear smaller.)


My sword site
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Robert W. Betten




Location: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 150

PostPosted: Sat 01 Jan, 2005 8:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I like this image of this particular sword on your site Björn...


 Attachment: 56.86 KB
sture.jpg


*!*
"If the people we love are taken from us,
the way they live on is to never stop loving
them. Buildings burn, people die, but real
love is forever."
- Sarah 'The Crow'
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Russ Ellis
Industry Professional




Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Posts: 2,608

PostPosted: Sat 01 Jan, 2005 8:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks guys, I truly envy you having seen the original Bjorn. A question for you or Peter if he happens by..

Why did he build his with a rain guard? Was there some extant remains of one on the original? Or was this just his interpretation?

TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
View user's profile Send private message
Björn Hellqvist
myArmoury Alumni


myArmoury Alumni

Location: Sweden
Joined: 19 Aug 2003

Posts: 723

PostPosted: Sun 02 Jan, 2005 1:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russ Ellis wrote:
Thanks guys, I truly envy you having seen the original Bjorn. A question for you or Peter if he happens by..

Why did he build his with a rain guard? Was there some extant remains of one on the original? Or was this just his interpretation?


Actually, I haven't seen the original, just Peter's reproduction. The pic is from a museum website. As for the rainguard, Peter and fellow researcher Patrik Djurfeldt found the remains of it, something that had been overlooked when the sword was first examined 50 years ago. The shape is based on examples in contemporary art.

My sword site
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional



Location: Storvreta, Sweden
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 1,757

PostPosted: Sun 02 Jan, 2005 2:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks, Björn!
(och Gott Nytt År till dig och fmiljen! Happy )

The sword of Svante Nilsson was found in Västerås cathedral during retoration work in the late 50´s. In a grave was found the remains of a man with a naked sword resting on his bones. In the grave was also found two seals identifying the man as Svante Nilsson Sture, regent of Sweden.
When Patrik Djurfeldt ond I first examined the sword in the winter of 1998 we saw a number of details that had not been noticed before. One such thing was the niches in the pommel, a most interesting feature as it later turned out.
Another thing was a crust or flake with a different structure that was adhering to the middle of the cross guard. It had the same structure as the leather of the grip and on closer examination it turned out to be leather of a thicker kind. This was proof there had once been a rainguard on the sword.
One should not be surpriced by this as it was a very common feature on swords at this time. In fact, many of those swords we love and know well that have just a plain cross today, once had rainguars as well. It is just that these tend to be worn away by time as the leather becomes fragile as it dries out.
As to the shape of the rainguard we could only guess. There are two general types to choose from: a tubular type that encloses the blade on all sides (this is the type on the elegant "Bayerisches sword") or the rainguard can be two tounges or flaps on each face of the blade.
I tried both types and decided for the latter for my initial reconstruction. I am not fully decided yet, though. The rainguard could have been a tubular one.
We have chosen to make the Albion reconstruction not straying too far away from my initial interpreatation in these details. Most who like the sword knows it from the reconstructon with the red-brown leather and slightly leaf shaped rain guard. The exact shape of that rainguard is taken from some swords depicted in art in the church where the sword was found. We (Patrick and I) wanted some connection to the origin even as we could choose freely on different soultions. The other possibility is that the rainguard did look pretty much like the one on the Bayerisches sword.

I believe that the sword of Svante Nilsson Sture was made by the same cutler as the one who made the Bayerishes sword. I am in the process of making a custom reproduction of that incredible sword and have documented the original in Münich. It is a tremendous weapon.
Another sword that is imporant in this contex is the sword depicted on page 211 in "Records": XX.4. Oakeshott have had this in his collection and have told me that his sword once had had some kind of statuettes in the nices, as there were small lugs remaining, although the figures themselves had been removed.
The pommel on XX.4 is identical to the pommel on the Svante nilsson Sture sword.
XX.4 has a cross guard that is identical to the Bayerisches sword.
This makes an interesting chain of similar features between theses three swords. The similarity is more than a superficial similarity of type, the character of these swords is like reulting from the same "handwriting" if you like.
Having handeled the "Bayerisches sword" I can testify it express much of the same crispness and prescence as the sword of Svante Nlsson Sture. Both these swords also have tremendous authority. Once you´ve seen them they will linger in your memory.

Svante Nilsson Sture was not the nobleman who was murdered by the king Erik the XIV. That drama took place in the later 16th C.
Svante Nilsson Sture was active in the late 1400 and early 1500. He was born around 1460 and came to be regent (king without crown) of Sweden between 1504-1512.
He took part in the war agianst Russia 1495-97 with distinguished honors. He took the castle of Ivangorod and created a name for himself as a resourcefull warrior.
The times he lived in were chaotic with almost constant aggression and struggle between those in favour and those against the union between Denmark, Sweden and Norway. Svante Nilsson fought on both sides in the conflict, as suited his purposes. He was very much the renaissance man in that way. His worst rival was Sten Sture the elder, who was a skilled and ruthless politician, entepreneur and warrior (he is today more well known than Svante Nilsson).

We do not know when and how Svante Nillson got his sword. I have a favourite theory, though.
He helped the Danish king to the throne of Sweden in opposition to Sten Sture (his rival). As thanks for his role in this Svante was dubbed knight: a rare thing at this time.
In the ceremony the sponsor of the knight is supposed to present him with a sword. The Knight to be is to swear fealty to his sponsor by three saints (I cannot remember wich right now). Svante´s knightly sword could have been the sword that accompanied him in his grave. In the three niches in the pommel could have been placed the saints he swore his knighlty oath by.
As Svante later made rebellion against the Danish king (and we assume the sword was given as a sign of his knigthood) it is not unreasonale to think he pried away the three holy images, not to be reminded by his betrayal to his liege. As we know he was proud of his knightly title (his wife lovingly called him "my sinister knight" in personal letters) it is also understandable why his family wanted the sword to rest with him in his grave. (Being entombed with a sword was rare in Sweden at this time, but it was common in Denmark).
There is no way of prooving this theory, but to me it is an attractive thought.
We also know that Maximilian I presented swords as gift to the Danish king (the same that dubbed Svante).
In a woodcut we can see Maximilian wearing a sword very similar to the sword of Svante Nilsson.

The sword as produced today by Albion is more accurate than my initial reconstruction. I have returned to the original a number of times for further study and seen aspects/details that I was not aware of when I made the first version. These have been incorporated in the development of the Albion-produced sword. The blade is more detailed in its distal taper, the cross section is more refined and the pommel is more detailed and defined. I am happy to see that those who will now own the production version will have a sword that is closer to the original than my handforged sword that was made some years ago.
As has been testified by others, the sword handles remarcably well. It is massive but is still extremely agile. The blade is skillfuly made and has impressive dimensions. Some think the thick blade and the pronounced midrib and concave edge bevels would be detrimental to the cutting performance. This is not so. The sword cuts very well and delivers with rare authority. The heft, mass and balance of this sword works together resutling in a very powerful and graceful weapon. It is without a doubt an example of the higest level of the swordmakers art in the late 15th/ early 16th C. To study this sword has been a privilege and a humbling experience for me as a contemporary sword maker. I am happy and proud to see Albion now making this sword available to enthusiasts, and to a level of excellence that makes the original justice.
(Thanks, it was good to get this of my chest Wink Happy )

Please note:
The infamous "Sture killings" in the castle of Uppsala took place in 1567. Those unfortunates killed by the crazed king Erik XIV was Svante Sture jr (born 1517; a grandson of our Svante Nilsson Sture) and his both sons Nils & Erik Svantesson Sture.
The viceroy Svante Nilsson Sture had rested(?) in his grave a long time by then. I can imagin he would have had some words to say to Erik XIV and perhaps underline his reasoning with a few swift strokes with his great knightly sword of war...
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jesse Smithers





Joined: 29 Dec 2004

Posts: 17

PostPosted: Sun 02 Jan, 2005 12:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
Svante Nilsson Sture was not the nobleman who was murdered by the king Erik the XIV. That drama took place in the later 16th C. Svante Nilsson Sture was active in the late 1400 and early 1500. He was born around 1460 and came to be regent (king without crown) of Sweden between 1504-1512.

Please note:
The infamous "Sture killings" in the castle of Uppsala took place in 1567. Those unfortunates killed by the crazed king Erik XIV was Svante Sture jr (born 1517; a grandson of our Svante Nilsson Sture) and his both sons Nils & Erik Svantesson Sture.
The viceroy Svante Nilsson Sture had rested(?) in his grave a long time by then. I can imagin he would have had some words to say to Erik XIV and perhaps underline his reasoning with a few swift strokes with his great knightly sword of war...


Peter, thanks for setting me straight. One reason I hate 'jr' of sons. (don't get me started on George Foreman WTF?! ) It creates too much confusion. I read all the history I could. The ones in english anyway. I thought they just left out "Nilsson" of his name. I shouldn't have assumed anything. Question, how did Svante Nilsson Sture die?
View user's profile Send private message
Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional



Location: Storvreta, Sweden
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 1,757

PostPosted: Sun 02 Jan, 2005 1:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jesse Smithers wrote:
Question, how did Svante Nilsson Sture die?



...He died of stroke while negotiating the mining rights to a silver mine.
This was just after christmas having gorged himself with lots of drink and fat food.
....Lethal combination. Happy
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
David McElrea




Location: Canada
Joined: 26 Nov 2003

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 438

PostPosted: Sun 02 Jan, 2005 3:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Jonhsson wrote:
Quote:
He died of stroke while negotiating the mining rights to a silver mine


I suppose we could deduce that he had a bit of a choleric temperament then. Laughing Out Loud
View user's profile Send private message
Russ Ellis
Industry Professional




Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Posts: 2,608

PostPosted: Sun 02 Jan, 2005 7:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the fascinating information Peter. You also answered an earlier question I had about why you thought that there might be some sort of saintly icons in the pommel recesses. Now I'm going to go look up all the swords you referenced. Happy
TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
View user's profile Send private message
Ben Sweet




Location: 831
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 519

PostPosted: Sun 02 Jan, 2005 7:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Congrats Russ! I'm looking forward to your review and more pics!
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Steve Grisetti




Location: Orlando metro area, Florida, USA
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Likes: 9 pages
Reading list: 28 books

Posts: 1,812

PostPosted: Mon 03 Jan, 2005 7:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Somehow, I was never terribly excited by the Svante sword from the pictures on the Albion site. I am afraid that the views here, for some reason, have started me down the road to an expensive obsession Eek!

By the way, Russ, if you should ever get tired of your Svante, or maybe it takes up too much room at your house, I would be happy to help you out....
View user's profile Send private message
Russ Ellis
Industry Professional




Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Posts: 2,608

PostPosted: Mon 03 Jan, 2005 12:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lol the weird thing is Steve, that when I very first saw the sword I had the same impression... Interesting but not to impressive. Then I kept going back and looking at that pommel. Then I kept going back and looking at that blade. Then I kept reading more of the history behind it. Then I saw some of Peter's detailed drawings on Albion's site... Then I got to thinking and thinking and thinking. It grows on you. Happy

There was also a very good article in Albion's magazine about the reconstruction that I highly recommend if you can get your hands on a copy.

TRITONWORKS Custom Scabbards
View user's profile Send private message
Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,646

PostPosted: Mon 03 Jan, 2005 1:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was r-e-a-l close to trying one out for a while there.

School won out in the end though.

"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Sture Sword arrives
Page 2 of 3 Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum