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M Hermes
Location: The Netherlands Joined: 25 Aug 2011
Posts: 77
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 Posted: Tue 25 Feb, 2014 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Mat for your good explanation!
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Eric S
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| Posted: Wed 26 Feb, 2014 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | | M Hermes wrote: | | I had a quick look and you are right, it is all demi riveted. Does that mean that it is made in India, the Ottoman empire or Persia? |
Most likely. Demi-riveted construction with round "pin" rivets seems to have been the norm in Europe until the mid-14th century when it appears to have been completely replaced with all riveted construction. Some sources indicate Turkish mail moved to all riveted construction in the 15th century, but Indo-Persian mail seems to have remained demi-riveted into the17th century, eventually being replaced with butted mail. |
The term "Indo-Persian" is a catch all category that includes Ottoman, Indian and Persian armor, it is often impossible to distinguish between the various types of Indo-Persian mail.
I have not seen any early Ottoman mail that was not demi-riveted as all of the 15th to 16th century krug mail I have seen has been demi riveted, and the few examples of so called "Persian" or "Indo-Persian" all riveted mail that I have seen look suspiciously like European all riveted mail to me. All of the Indian riveted mail that I have seen has been demi-riveted as well. Often armors were captured and or sold / traded etc and eventually they ended up in various locations around the world far from their origination.
As always if anyone has any evidence that contradicts what I have observed I am glad to see it.
15th to 16th century Ottoman mail.
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Erik D. Schmid
Location: St. Cloud, MN Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Thu 27 Feb, 2014 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | Erik,
Do you believe that interior point is indicative of non-European origin, or is simply a category? It seems more Persian/Caucasian than Indian in my limited experience. |
Non-European is what I was referring to. It is more Middle-Eastern than Indian as I have not seen any Indian mail with this feature.
Much of the all-riveted mail that you will find in places like Pakistan more than likely is European in origin as there was a lot of mail exported to these countries centuries ago.
http://www.erikds.com
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Thu 27 Feb, 2014 9:32 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, Erik.
It's good to have one more identification tool in the arsenal.
Rivet form: round, wedge, rectangular, staple
Construction: Demi-riveted, fully riveted, butted, coiled, and tailoring methods
Ring form: split ring, internal point, coining, and probably others
All of these may help determine area of origin or original use.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S
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| Posted: Thu 27 Feb, 2014 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| Erik D. Schmid wrote: | | Both pieces are of non-European mail. The thicker riveted links are quite worn, but they are in good enough condition to identify them as belonging to a group having a lapped area with a point that faces the inside of the link. |
Here are a couple of close up views from the larger links and known Ottoman mail on the bottom, the large links are very similar to the Ottoman mail.
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sun 02 Mar, 2014 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Erik D. Schmid wrote: | | Mart Shearer wrote: | Erik,
Do you believe that interior point is indicative of non-European origin, or is simply a category? It seems more Persian/Caucasian than Indian in my limited experience. |
Non-European is what I was referring to. It is more Middle-Eastern than Indian as I have not seen any Indian mail with this feature. |
Here is an Indian mail and plate shirt with an interior point.
| Quote: | | Indian zirah baktar, (mail and plate shirt), 1st half of the 17th century, forged of heavy alternating riveted and solid rings, set with forged steel plates in the characteristic pattern, with applied spearhead shaped closures. Two of the plates bear short Mughal inscriptions on the reverse. Overall length from nape to hem 120.4 cm. |
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sun 02 Mar, 2014 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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None of this is particularly useful. It has already been established that none of the pieces are European. It is impossible to tell whether Mughal mail was made in India or in the Middle East since there was a lot of trade in both directions. The OP wants to know how much each piece is worth. I've offered $350 for the patch with the heavy links. IMO the others are worth less than this.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sun 02 Mar, 2014 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | None of this is particularly useful. |
Dan, what you mean is none of this is particularly useful to you.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Mon 03 Mar, 2014 1:22 am Post subject: |
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The OP wants to know what a fair price for each of those pieces is. Once it is established that the mail isn't European then further discussion about origin doesn't help determine price. Ottoman, Persian, and Indian mail all have a similar selling price. What would affect the price is determining how old the mail is. My best guess is that they are all 15th-17th century.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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Eric S
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| Posted: Mon 03 Mar, 2014 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| Dan Howard wrote: | | The OP wants to know what a fair price for each of those pieces is. Once it is established that the mail isn't European then further discussion about origin doesn't help determine price. |
Has it been determined that all of the pieces are non-European, I thought only some of the pieces have an inward point.
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This is a standard topic
