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Joel Minturn





Joined: 10 Dec 2007

Posts: 232

PostPosted: Tue 04 Mar, 2014 11:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Miguel Gade Islund wrote:
Hello everybody!

The reason the horses in medieval art often is shown rearing is NOT artistic license, it is a special move in combat riding and is still used and shown in barock riding exhibitions. It's called a "karriere" jump and has the horse pushing off with both hind legs in stead of just one, which is normal in a gallop. This was used in battle just before impact, as it makes the lance hit that much harder.


As much as I would love to take full credit for the artistic license theory, I learned about it in an art history class and the picture used to demonstrate this had nothing to do with knights or lancers. If memory servers me correctly it was Mexican or Spanish officers on horseback galloping.



Its a small picture but shows a Mamaluke on horse back galloping to attack. It is later than anything posted so far but has the same postures to show motions, including the horses in the background.

There are many other examples of this artistic convetion from much earlier (cave paintings) to much later (American Indian on horse back chasing a buffalo) Just have to keep an eye out for it when looking at paintings with horses in motion and you'll see it.
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
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Posts: 2,698

PostPosted: Mon 31 Mar, 2014 2:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Miguel Gade Islund wrote:
The reason the horses in medieval art often is shown rearing is NOT artistic license, it is a special move in combat riding and is still used and shown in barock riding exhibitions. It's called a "karriere" jump


I'm not convinced that this indicates a special manoeuvre, since "career" (in English) and its equivalents in other European languages was a very common word for a very fast gallop, which in military contexts was normally used at the very end of a cavalry charge.


Joel Minturn wrote:


Its a small picture but shows a Mamaluke on horse back galloping to attack. It is later than anything posted so far but has the same postures to show motions, including the horses in the background.


On a somewhat unrelated tangent, the Mamluks in the painting are probably French Mamluks -- in fact, the main figure might be Roustan (Rustam?), Napoleon's Mamluk bodyguard.
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Jaroslav Kravcak




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 22 Apr 2006

Posts: 123

PostPosted: Mon 12 May, 2014 12:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well if ranged weapons are factored out from infantry, I see few possible outcomes: wavering/undisciplined/whatever else infantry formation might break before cavalry and be cut down with few casualties to horsemen, or cavalry starts gallop too early/breaks up formation by whatever cause, like terrain, or traps/simply doesnt have a nerve to push into combat and they run away, maybe regroup, maybe not and both sides get out of it almost intact. These might be two most propable outcomes, when descriptions state, that either cavalry won decisely, or infantry was able to beat off X-numbers of cavalry charges.

Then there is a possibility of infantry with close combat weapons resolved to stand and cavalry resolved to stand as well, but not enough to push into them, so cavalrymen ride parallel to infantrys front and around them, if possible and then Id say it depends on their armament: lance armed cavalry riding around infantry armed with short weapons might be able to deal significant casualties, as they fight at the distance, while they would most propably be only nuissance to something like Swiss pikesquare, but they would deny mobility and visibility, if I picture being there on foot and mass of horses ride all around, swirling dust and metre or so taller, than I am, it seems this would be a good way to panic, or isolate whole big group and make it a target for other units, without any need to touch it. This also bring out a possibility, that few horsemen might try to leap into formation, in this case it might end badly for not so coherent infantry formation, if it is broken, or riders pass through/retreat/are stopped and killed, or taken and infantry formation closes again, if many try it, then both sides will suffer casualties not just cavalry in my opinion. (So I dont really believe there ever was a massacre of hundreds of horsemen in even fight against infantry mostly done in close combat, with infantry suffering disparately less)

As far as massacres of horsemen in close combat go, with the exceptions, Id say it allwas involved a trap, either to cripple horses and put them out of action, or to deny enemy cavalry mobility in charge, or in rout, it doesnt have to be a trap, it might simply be terrain features, so Im convinced, that just like most infantry would be cut down by cavalry in retreat, same would be true for cavalry being cut down in larger numbers by infantry, just, that it needs something to compensate for their inferior mobility. The fact, that cavalry almost exclusively attacks into contact with the enemy makes their position disadvantageous already, it might not have any influence at all, especially, if they attack, where enemy isnt prepared for them, or attacks himself, but if they attack enemy exactly, where he wants, then they allways run a risk of charging straight into nasty surprize. Id say its the same for attacking infantry, they are already at disadvantage, but generally much more numerous.

And sometimes it might possible that horsemen indeed simply bowled over infantry trampling them to the ground in masses, no matter how resolved they were to stand and defeated them this way, I see no reason, why this couldnt theoretically happen in right circumtances, but I dont know of any account of battle, where it is plainly and without doubt said this happened and Id say it would be much more propable in small skirmishes involving tens of men at most.

Once ranged weapons are factored in, at the side of infantry they can break enemy charge, no matter how resolved, or deter it from long distance, or cause great casualties, if horsemen decide to linger around and free them up from being imobilized, so I find it to be a real changer and cause of most cavalry losses. On the other hand, theres no need for one brave horseman to jump into pikes and die to clear a way for others, when theres a cannonball, or missile volley around to do the job.

Another thing is enemy cavalry: charging against enemy infantry with cavalry support means disorganized unit can be countercharged and easily destroyed, or routed by enemy cavalry, even if its inferior in quality as it has the advantage of still be fresh and well ordered.

So as already stated: Noone knows, as there was noone to see it and tell today and possibilities are almost endless. Laughing Out Loud It also seems, noone really realized in the past, that there once might be time, when someone would be interested in accurate, plastic and vivid description of what exactly happened to every single man and horse in a charge, I also doubt anyone would have the mental capability to describe it this way, most accounts, where someone is describing what happened to 50 different people in a matter of minute, or two, as he saw it, are highly suspicious of confabulation.

But in actual combat it seems most profesional infantry would hold their nerve and survive and it generally did have enough ranged weapons support to deter cavalry even further, so they survived and most cavalry charges ended well before they reached striking range of close combat weapons.

On the other hand, any account of cavalry sucess is generally dismissed as going against the enemy, that already melted before contact, but many times its just a matter of interpretation and indeed many examples show in my opinion, that resolved cavalry could and would force its way into infantry to break it this way without it running away, either because there was no other option to do the job, or for whatever other reason. I also dont find it convincing, that if formation was broken it automically meant all men threw their weapon to the ground at once and ran away, Id say it rather speaks about overall cohesion, that would loosen, with gaps in defence and a body of men fighting as one turning slowly into incoherent mass, where its everyone for himself, but a good fight of individual duels, or small groups could still be there, just with the advantage to cavalry.

Another good question might be, if we were in the position of a cavalryman, or cavalry commander, could there be use for a cavalry in any situation? I think clever commander would find a use for them in any situation, even those claimed today as impossible.
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