| Author |
Message |
Bjorn Hagstrom
|
 Posted: Tue 11 Feb, 2014 1:22 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Jon K. wrote: |
Is there a consensus, opinion, confirmation of the Del Tin Roman swords? |
Not as far as I know. But then, I am not really in touch with the roman/roman iron age reenacting community either.
But for later medieval periods, deltin has a solid reputation as a middle tier maker, and price and quality seem to be fairly balanced. I have handled a few deltins, and have never been disappointed.
Hope that someone with hands-on experience of their roman lineup can chip in with valid info.
There is nothing quite as sad as a one man conga-line...
|
|
   |
 |
J. Hargis
|
| Posted: Tue 11 Feb, 2014 4:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Matthew Amt said:
| Quote: | | There are often surprising consistencies, and the artifacts agree with what we see in artwork. New finds usually fall right into the recognizable categories (though of course modern typologies can be too restrictive!). Sometimes they are new and different in some way, in which case we can expand our definitions or otherwise change our tune. I love it when new stuff turns up! But I worry about the whole premise of "We've only found 0.01% of what existed", because it gets used as an excuse to make stuff up and call it "historical". Which it isn't. Just trying to explain where I'm coming from! |
Now we're getting somewhere. Just look at all those that have defied the various typologies. As to percentage found, now that would be difficult to determine, but it is necessarily very small. Total numbers & types found in museums would be an interesting survey to undertake.
Thanks, Matthew.
Jon
A poorly maintained weapon is likely to belong to an unsafe and careless fighter.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Timo Nieminen
|
| Posted: Tue 11 Feb, 2014 4:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Jon K. wrote: |
Depeeka? Don't they have a "not so hot" reputation as far as the swords they build. Their swords, including all of their Roman lineup, are very very heavy. Sometimes double the weight of Albion and Arms & Armor, which are supposed to be the some of the more historically accurate reproductions. (unless I am mistaken). I would also imagine that they would be very difficult to sharpen. KoA doesn't offer sharpening for Depeeka models, because they are much thicker than all the other models around and above their price range. Wouldn't this affect the handling and the function of the sword to do what it was historically designed to do? Again, I'm not arguing. I appreciate your advise, and I'm trying to understand. For my purposes, part of something being a historical value of the sword is its ability to function as a...y'know...sword? |
Re-enactors and martial artists have different priorities for historical weapons. A re-enactor wants something that looks as authentic as possible (within budget), while a martial artist wants something that handles as authentically as possible.
Deepeeka has an excellent reputation for cheap Roman stuff. Partly because the other cheap manufacturers are worse. Partly because (AFAIK), they've listened to feedback from re-enactors. Yes, heavy. For their Mainz gladius, 20-25% than an Albion Mainz. But what a bargain for a re-enactor in comparison: 1/4 the price, comes with an acceptable scabbard, and available off-the-shelf.
A lot of the Deepeeka swords are not heat-treated, so are quite soft. Those that are heat-treated are still not very hard. So time, effort, and a file will get most of the work done, without any great difficulty. (This will also improve the weight!) If you see your time spent doing it as $X/hr invested in it, then add that to the price tag. If you see your time spent sharpening etc. as leisure time enjoying your hobby, then it's an added benefit!
It all depends on your standards for "some degree of historical accuracy" and "functional", your criteria in your OP. Re-enactors want a lot of the first, martial artists want a lot of the second. Other collectors vary. Some place most value on other criteria (like lots of bling, coolness, uniqueness, which movie inspired it, etc.).
(The Del Tin gladii look good to me, but I am not a re-enactor. No scabbard.)
"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
|
|
 |
|
|
Matthew Amt
|
| Posted: Tue 11 Feb, 2014 8:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Jon K. wrote: | ...but I was secretly hoping that there would be a bunch of experts in these forums that would tell me that you smoked crack.  |
Ha! It's possible! Though I'm usually the one saying you shouldn't trust ME--go to the EVIDENCE!
| Quote: | | Depeeka? Don't they have a "not so hot" reputation as far as the swords they build. Their swords, including all of their Roman lineup, are very very heavy. |
Not a problem. Pretty much what Timo said. Yeah, some are too heavy, others are better. My group has gotten swords from a number of different sources over the years, so we don't have enough recent Deepeekas for me to say for sure that a particular type is always too heavy. I suspect they vary dramatically from one example to the next!
I also suspect that most of our repros are *better* in many ways than the originals, such as steel quality. Some Roman swords were exquisite and incredibly well made, but many were "government issue" and can barely be called "steel". But they only had to be good enough to cut flesh, and even the worst seem to have done that fine. Obviously "better in some ways" doesn't mean they are more historically accurate, I'm just saying that we don't need to strive for the "very best" blade. Unless you just like really good blades and like to cut with them! In that case, go Albion. The average legionary from 43 AD would weep for a chance to see anything so good.
My own front-line gladius is a very old Del Tin. I swapped out the thick steel guard plate for an inset brass one, and sanded the finish off the pommel and guard. Replaced the grip, too, though I think mine came with a wooden one originally. (Bone is better.) My gladius also came with a scabbard, with a quite reasonable brass frame--do they still offer scabbards? I have since modified that as well, adding decorated plates, a finial, and replacing the leather (twice).
Frankly, my whole group is discovering the joys of the angle grinder, and many of our blades (Roman and otherwise) have dates with this remarkable weight loss device. Yeah, we're tired of lugging boat anchors around! We're also seeing that it's about as easy to start with a piece of barstock and make what we want from scratch, in some cases, as it is to start with a bad repro and try to make it "good". Spending all kinds of time and effort to undo mistakes is frustrating.
| Quote: | Thank you in particuar, Mathew, for putting that article out there. Even if it killed Santa Claus.  |
You're very welcome! And he had to go--he never brought me enough swords for Christmas.
Vale!
Matthew
|
|
|
|
|
|
Frank Anthony Cannarella
Location: Medford, Oregon Joined: 02 Sep 2013
Posts: 15
|
| Posted: Tue 11 Feb, 2014 8:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Don't forget that Albion sells bare blades and two of them are roman swords. Go to your local hardwood supplier and get a few scraps of some nice wood for next to nothing and if you have some/little/ no woodworking skills but a lot of patience and you could have that nice albion gladius for $200 or less.
Populus stultus viris indignis honores saepe dat.
-Quintus Horatius Flaccus
|
|
|
|
|
Bartek Strojek
|
| Posted: Wed 12 Feb, 2014 10:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Jon K. wrote: |
I think there is allot of wisdom in this. Most of us will never hold a surviving original piece. All we can really do is pontificate on accuracy by the facts that remain. I almost wonder if all the minutia we debate about as far historical accuracy would be noticable by the people of the period. Imagine showing certain functional replicas to people of the period that people deem as historically inaccurate. We would sit back and wait for their jeers in High German, Latin, ect.. In fact they something, like "Hey nice sword. Who made this"
o do. |
Well, it depends on what you mean by "minutia", I guess.
They could certainly say something like that, but they would probably add something like "never seen anything like this", and "how it's made". In case of this particular piece in the first link, for example.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jon K.
|
| Posted: Wed 12 Feb, 2014 7:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bjorn Hagstrom wrote: | But what would be the best compromise to get? A not super-expensive, but still reasonably historical roman sword for our Original Poster?
I thing DelTin is a good start, they have roman swords at KoA that will run just shy of 400 USD
That might seem a bit stiff, compared to a Windlass but then you get something that you might actually stay fond of. Whereas if you are indeed hit by the collection bug, you will very soon grow out of the Windlass and want a better piece anyway.
Check out some here:
http://www.kultofathena.com/roman.asp |
I've heard very mixed reviews on a lot of the Del Tin swords made in the last few years. I would be more apt to jump at Del Tin if it included a scabbard. So to get a more historically accurate scabbard, it's going to send the price up into the very high tier categories. The scabbard might cost as much as the sword and if I'd spend around $700 to $800 dollars I might as well get an albion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jon K.
|
| Posted: Wed 12 Feb, 2014 7:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="Bartek Strojek"] | Jon K. wrote: |
They could certainly say something like that, but they would probably add something like "never seen anything like this", and "how it's made". In case of this particular piece in the first link, for example. |
Well, I can't sit here an argue what I think what a Roman soldier would say. I wonder if there would be a big concern with how it was made. This sword wouldn't have been standard issue if it was of parazonium design.
But let me give you a parallel example. Let's say I had to reproduction civil war bugals. One was a spot on repro. It had the correct shape, dimensions, serial markings etc. It's pretty close to the original, except it doesn't play a sound. Now on the other hand we have a movie reproduction bugal. It's not exactly tthe same size. It's coated with a different metal to give it an antiqued look, the year is wrong for the bugal type, and CSA is written in the wrong area. But when you play it it sounds like a bugal.
A civil war historian could pick it apart one by one. An uneducated collector like myself would think it was "neat". Now we go back in time. (Yes I know this is getting more ridiculous the more I type). A confederate soldier picks up the historically accurate one to play in the morning. It doesn't work. He picks up the "other" bugal and it plays. I wonder if he'd give it a second thought.
Just food for thought.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jon K.
|
| Posted: Wed 12 Feb, 2014 8:09 pm Post subject: At the risk of beating a dead horse... |
|
|
I knew this was more or less a lost cause for some semblance of historical accuracy of this windlass sword from the first post. I don't want to keep arguing with people more knowledgeable than me. If it's any condolation, this forced me to do a little more research into the shapes designs, and the names of ancient roman swords. I am slightly more educated if not confused. I couldn't help coming across designs that had similar resemblance to the Windlass/MRL Roman Eagle "Gladius". The blade isn't even in the shape of a Gladius to begin with. I still can't help thinking when I see these pics though:
 Attachment: 16.62 KB
Another sword...
Attachment: 131.21 KB
This looks familiar... [ Download ]
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jon K.
|
| Posted: Wed 12 Feb, 2014 8:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Another one...
Attachment: 11.28 KB
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jon K.
|
| Posted: Wed 12 Feb, 2014 8:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I think I posted this so forgive me if it's a repost...
Attachment: 131.21 KB
[ Download ]
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jon K.
|
| Posted: Wed 12 Feb, 2014 8:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The scabbard...[/img][/url]
Attachment: 102.29 KB
[ Download ]
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jon K.
|
| Posted: Wed 12 Feb, 2014 8:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
More scabbard...
Attachment: 49.92 KB
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jon K.
|
| Posted: Wed 12 Feb, 2014 8:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Even more of the same scabbard...
Attachment: 211.83 KB
|
|
|
|
|
|
Matthew Amt
|
| Posted: Thu 13 Feb, 2014 6:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
Be careful, the Xavier Kenney site is FILLED with fakes. (What's funnier is the bizarre long-winded fantasy descriptions he comes up with, interpreting a few scratches as epic poetry.) Some of the real artifacts are misidentified. Worse than useless site, in the end. But those eagle-headed swords of his are obvious fakes.
The scabbard parts you show are the well-known "Sword of Tiberius" in the British Museum. A number of Asian manufacturers copied its decoration, with varying success, but no regard to the materials or actual methods used. Which is why I say that some of these schlock pieces actually don't *look* too bad in the photo--heck, they're often vastly better than anything Hollywood has come up with!
Matthew
|
|
|
|
|
|
Greg Ballantyne
|
| Posted: Thu 13 Feb, 2014 10:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
Jon
I'll offer some advice of a different flavor...... go ahead and buy the sword you want. You will enjoy it for a while, and it will also disappoint you. You'll get a better quality piece at some point, that will serve as a constant highlight to the inadequacies of the first purchase. You will resolve that the next purchase will be of better value, and find ways to justify the higher investment. You'll learn more about your periods of interest, and become a better judge of the available range of choices. If you're like me, you'll keep them all anyway. It will be immensely fun and rewarding. You may as well get started!
Its a well traveled path that most of us are familiar with. You'll likely follow some form of it, no matter what choice you make today. The fun is in the journey.
|
|
|
|
|
Bartek Strojek
|
| Posted: Thu 13 Feb, 2014 11:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | But that's exactly what historical accuracy is all about! Though it is far from a minute number, and museums have very few of the examples we study. And even if the total number is a "statistically minute" sample, from what we can tell it is generally a good cross-section of what actually was used 2000 years ago. There are often surprising consistencies, and the artifacts agree with what we see in artwork. New finds usually fall right into the recognizable categories (though of course modern typologies can be too restrictive!). Sometimes they are new and different in some way, in which case we can expand our definitions or otherwise change our tune. I love it when new stuff turns up! But I worry about the whole premise of "We've only found 0.01% of what existed", because it gets used as an excuse to make stuff up and call it "historical". Which it isn't. Just trying to explain where I'm coming from!
That all said, I've done fantasy stuff! And with my obsession with history, I can't avoid "historically inspired" fantasy, either. And yes, there are definitely compromises with every piece you buy or make! You just have to go with what you are personally satisfied with. (Aim a little high, actually, to give yourself a margin for error!) My concern is that people should not confuse "historically inspired" with "historical", or try to rationalize one into the other. Leave them in separate mental boxes. And enjoy!
|
| Greg Ballantyne wrote: | Jon
I'll offer some advice of a different flavor...... go ahead and buy the sword you want. You will enjoy it for a while, and it will also disappoint you. You'll get a better quality piece at some point, that will serve as a constant highlight to the inadequacies of the first purchase. You will resolve that the next purchase will be of better value, and find ways to justify the higher investment. You'll learn more about your periods of interest, and become a better judge of the available range of choices. If you're like me, you'll keep them all anyway. It will be immensely fun and rewarding. You may as well get started!
Its a well traveled path that most of us are familiar with. You'll likely follow some form of it, no matter what choice you make today. The fun is in the journey. |
Yeah, that would be my take.
Buying this sword can/will be huge fun for all we can guess. It certainly look nifty, especially if someone likes such metal cast/carved ornaments like that eagle head.
Just don't try convince yourself and others that something like that 'might have actually' happened then. 
Just enjoy your fantasy/historically inspired weapon!
|
|
|
|
|
J. Hargis
|
| Posted: Thu 13 Feb, 2014 11:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
Bartek: | Quote: | | Just don't try convince yourself and others that something like that 'might have actually' happened then. |
But didn't something like that actually happen? :-)
Jon
A poorly maintained weapon is likely to belong to an unsafe and careless fighter.
|
|
|
|
|
Bartek Strojek
|
| Posted: Thu 13 Feb, 2014 11:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| J. Hargis wrote: |
But didn't something like that actually happen? :-)
|
Well, I'm not expert about sculptures, but I'm pretty sure that one post-dates that early gladius design by about 400 years, no?
So we have piece of symbolic art from completely different period, depicting hilts of completely different swords.
Said hilts, if existed at all, might have looked somehow like that Windlass piece.
Which quite frankly looks more Rococo in inspiration.
So, like other, more knowledgeable guys have mentioned IT MIGHT had, somehow existed. Or something similar.
It just probably doesn't lie in realm of any significant probability.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Jon K.
|
| Posted: Thu 13 Feb, 2014 1:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="Bartek Strojek"] | Quote: |
Just enjoy your fantasy/historically inspired weapon! |
Well if you put it that way, I guess I might not as well get it. I really am not interested in owning a fantasy sword. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum
|
This is a standard topic