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Augusto Boer Bront
Industry Professional
Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy Joined: 12 Nov 2009
Posts: 294
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 Posted: Tue 04 Feb, 2014 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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You are right, we always use the perspective of the everyday office worker =).
And yes, people using XII or XIII would be much more strong and trained to do so.
Still, the fact that Oakeshott described just for this typology the use both with one or two hands, when it's obvious that several were designed just for two hand use, and not for other swords like the XV or other types, leaves me perplexed.
And I get more perplex on the fact that people still cite his words when he just studied the originals, without being a fencer or using them with the proper techniques (the latter are just suppositions I make, since I can't find anywhere that he actively used or handled "properly" the swords that he owned).
Cheers =).
Armourer-Artist-Blacksmith
www.magisterarmorum.com
Pinterest albums to almost all existing XIVth century armour.
Pinterest albums on almost all existing XVth century Italian armour.
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Harry Marinakis
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| Posted: Tue 04 Feb, 2014 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeremy V. Krause wrote: | | I really don't see how a great sword could be used on foot with only one have. It just doesn't seem probable. Maybe the shield could have remained, as Robin states, from a quite. |
Medieval manuscripts and art that show the great sword being used in battle all show someone on foot, swinging with both hands, and often their shield is hanging from a sling on their back.
I haven't found a single image that shows a great sword being used in battle from on top of a horse. If you have such an image, I'd love to see it.
My primary interest has been scabbards and suspensions of great swords. I have been scouring as many resources as I can find for examples of great sword scabbards and suspensions.
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Wed 05 Feb, 2014 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| Augusto Boer Bront wrote: |
Still, the fact that Oakeshott described just for this typology the use both with one or two hands, when it's obvious that several were designed just for two hand use, and not for other swords like the XV or other types, leaves me perplexed.
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My guess Augusto is that Oakeshott's purpose was to indicate that great swords are neither heavy nor clumsy weapons, and one of the most straightforward ways of doing that would be pointing out that it is possible to strike with them using one hand. Back in 1989 when he was writing, the overwhelming majority of people, and a significant number of his readers, would have being operating under the "medieval swords weighed 10 pounds" assumption. (Sadly, many lay people still operate under this assumption today). As such, when they looked at an XIIa or an XIIIa, both the epitome of large, medieval hewing swords, the assumption would have been "Boy, this sword must have been really slow and clumsy!" So Oakeshott comes along and says, "No, they're not; you can use them with one hand, in many cases". Obviously, this will radically change people's perspectives, and help them to realize that the swords weren't so heavy after all.
I agree that his statement is problematic, because it can lead people to think "If I was strong and trained enough as a knight, I could have used a sword like this one handed", when you cannot. I, and many people, can effectively cut with an XIIa or XIIIa one handed, but there's a world of difference between that and fighting with these swords using one hand. Oakeshott's statement can lead people to assume "Use one-handed" equals "Fight one handed", and that's where the "problem" arises.
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Bryan Heff
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| Posted: Wed 05 Feb, 2014 4:28 am Post subject: |
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I think its quite obvious that the larger XIIa/XIIIa swords were 2-handed weapons, fought with (good distinction Craig) using both hands. It is interesting that medieval images do often show the shield hung from the shoulder. I wonder if the shield somehow was still used in that configuration, to add some additional protection to the left side?
I also would be pretty surprised to find these kinds of swords used while mounted, just does not seem likely. Sure I suppose you could swing a devastating one handed cut while riding by using a great sword but why would you want to? Just does not seem to be the right tool for the job. There were other long bladed cleaving swords with distinctly single handed grips already for that sort of duty, the Sword of St. Maurice instantly comes to mind.
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Bartek Strojek
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| Posted: Wed 05 Feb, 2014 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| Bryan Heff wrote: |
I also would be pretty surprised to find these kinds of swords used while mounted, just does not seem likely. Sure I suppose you could swing a devastating one handed cut while riding by using a great sword but why would you want to? Just does not seem to be the right tool for the job. There were other long bladed cleaving swords with distinctly single handed grips already for that sort of duty, the Sword of St. Maurice instantly comes to mind. |
Even having horse with large, developed saddle, knights belt etc. there would stil be limited amount of space to hang stuff from.
I would imagine that carrying two swords could be often avoided.
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Luka Borscak
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Elliot R.
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| Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2014 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I haven't found a single image that shows a great sword being used in battle from on top of a horse. If you have such an image, I'd love to see it. |
Well then, it's just our luck for Mike Loades to come across one and post it to his facebook page! 
In fact, this one depicts multiple people using some form of "great sword" from horseback. Here's the ID on the manuscript folio:
Manuscript BNF Français 343 Queste del Saint Graal / Tristan de Léonois
Folio 25v
Dating 1380-1385
From Milan, Italy
Holding Institution Bibliothèque Nationale
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Phil D.
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| Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2014 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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Is that last pic really a "great sword" or just an artist rendition of a two handed grip on a hand and a half. Not meaning to be knit-picky for swords have been depicted used w/both hands but the blade size doesn't scream great sword.
"A bottle of wine contains more philosophy than all the books in the world." -- Louis Pasteur
"A gentleman should never leave the house without a sharp knife, a good watch, and great hat."
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Harry Marinakis
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| Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2014 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you Elliot!
| Phil D. wrote: | | Is that last pic really a "great sword" or just an artist rendition of a two handed grip on a hand and a half. Not meaning to be knit-picky for swords have been depicted used w/both hands but the blade size doesn't scream great sword. |
That question is always an issue when looking at images such as this. Here's my take on the question.
During the period c. AD 1380 there were only a few swords that could be used with two hands:
Type XIIa-XIIIa great swords
Type XVa bastard swords
Type XVIa
XVII
What sets great swords apart from the others is that the great swords were fullered and generally had straight Type 1-7 guards.
The other swords tended to have diamond cross-sections and down-turned guards.
These are all generalities, of course. The inference, then, is that the sword above is a great sword since it has a straight cross.
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Elliot R.
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| Posted: Tue 04 Mar, 2014 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Harry Marinakis wrote: | Thank you Elliot!
| Phil D. wrote: | | Is that last pic really a "great sword" or just an artist rendition of a two handed grip on a hand and a half. Not meaning to be knit-picky for swords have been depicted used w/both hands but the blade size doesn't scream great sword. |
That question is always an issue when looking at images such as this. Here's my take on the question.
During the period c. AD 1380 there were only a few swords that could be used with two hands:
Type XIIa-XIIIa great swords
Type XVa bastard swords
Type XVIa
XVII
What sets great swords apart from the others is that the great swords were fullered and generally had straight Type 1-7 guards.
The other swords tended to have diamond cross-sections and down-turned guards.
These are all generalities, of course. The inference, then, is that the sword above is a great sword since it has a straight cross. |
The pommel forms on some of those also appear to be of Type J, which were popular on a lot of Type XIIa, XIIIa, and XVIa.
In any case, whether or not all of the swords with lengthened grips in that image can be considered high medieval "Great Swords" is not really what matters most for my purpose in this manuscript image - what matters most is that there's a depiction of the use of swords from horseback that have grips that can be used with one or two hands, and also that there's more than one knight or man-at-arms in that image using both hands to cut with a sword on horseback, not even holding the reins.
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Robert Morgan
Location: Sunny SoCal Joined: 10 Sep 2012
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Tue 20 Jan, 2015 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Phil D. wrote:
Is that last pic really a "great sword" or just an artist rendition of a two handed grip on a hand and a half. Not meaning to be knit-picky for swords have been depicted used w/both hands but the blade size doesn't scream great sword. |
I assume you're referring to the knight on horseback with a pinkish surcoat? It may be artistic license, but the artist has portrayed him with both hands totally on the grip, even with some room to spare between the bottom hand and the pommel. That makes me think its a Type XII or XIII. As for the blade shape, it vanishes due to the inclusion of the text, so I'm not sure how probative what little we're seeing is.
I'm a very new beginner to German longsword, and admittedly probably more of a menace than anything else. However, I train with a Darksword Black Prince at home, not the lightest of weapons, but one with a very long grip and a reasonably long blade. I have experienced very little trouble wielding it one handed. Indeed, the grip length serves to counterbalance the weapon when wielded one handed quite well. I imagine that a great sword would have behaved similarly. The one area where I have experienced difficulties is recovering from a stroke, where the single hand may not offer enough leverage for a fast, fluid recovery. On horseback against lightly armored opponents, this may not have presented a problem if the knight didn't swing and hack so much as simply keep the blade at a proper angle and cut into a target. Indeed, a large blade like a Type XII or XIII might have perhaps been best reaching out and touching foot soldiers from the saddle.
However, I think we're perhaps missing the greater point of the discussion. The argument should not be what would a great sword have been used for, but rather what wouldn't it have been used for? Unless one were a great lord, magnate, or the son of one, the average knight probably wouldn't own more than a few swords simply due to their cost unless he was lucky enough to acquire a number from the battlefield or tournament. The average knight also might not possess a retinue to help carry and maintain his gear. Therefore, he would have used whatever he possessed and could carry for whatever task was at hand, be it a great sword, an arming sword, or something in between. He may have preferred a great sword "outdoors," where the room existed to better utilize its larger blade and impact force. He may have also preferred a single handed weapon for fighting in close quarters, for example, but in the end the distinction was probably academic. One uses what is on hand.
Robert
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Glen A Cleeton
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| Posted: Wed 21 Jan, 2015 6:10 am Post subject: |
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First, I am not a studied Medievalist, however, I have spent some time in studying some histories both from such as Walsingham and Froissart when looking at specific battles and periods of campaign. The English were big on dismounting and fighting with the infantry.
I see earlier in the thread that a lot of thought is being drawn from the art, rather than text; this may tend to build some false histories and thought process.
Cheers
GC
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