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Guy Bayes




Location: United States
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PostPosted: Wed 22 Jan, 2014 4:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Often wondered about those huge spear references in the bible and whether they were perhaps referring to a spear head plus a partial metal sheath for the shaft?

Regardless of the exact number of sheckles there does seem to be a meme that heavy spearhead = scary that repeats in several places
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Wed 22 Jan, 2014 6:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Mart Shearer wrote:
While the Dead Sea Scrolls indicate "4 cubits and a span", 6'9"/2m or so, the possibility of "6 cubits and a span", 9'9"/2.97m from other translations should not be readily discounted. Consider the example of Robert Wadlow, the Guiness Book of Records tallest man who reached 8'11"/2.72m at his death, with a top weight of 492lb/223kg.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Wadlow

To a man of such height and weight, would a 3"/76mm diameter shaft be unruly, or a 15lb spear head?

Yes it would. People who reach these extreme heights have so many physical problems that fighting in a battle would be impossible - even with a regular spear. Don't forget that he is also supposed to have been wearing over 50kg of armour.


The degree to which this might be possible would seem to be dependent upon the cause of the giaganntism. While certainly the case with Wadlow, it is not always so at an early age.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenden_Adams
Quote:
Brenden Adams (born September 20, 1995 in Ellensburg, Washington) holds the record for being the tallest teenager in the world. His father, Willie Adams, and mother, Debbie Ezell, first observed his extreme height condition when he was two months old.[1] The condition is caused by a disorder with the 12th chromosome.[2]

His activities include joining a middle school football team.[3] In 2008, there was an attempt to halt Brenden's growth when he was 7'4.5" (2.25 m) tall.[4]

Adams' growth curve almost mimics that of Robert Wadlow's. Some doctors[who?] estimate he would have been over 8 feet tall (2.44 m) if he kept growing constantly. After endocrinologist Dr. Gad Kletter's treatment with high dose testosterone, his growth was arrested.[1]


Without modern medical care, it is unknown what heights (literally) this young man may have reached. He may well die an early death due to side effects of the gigantism, but there is no Biblical statement of Goliath's age. Goliath might well have been in his 20s. Given Wadlow's growth rate, which did not appear to be stopping before his death at the age of 22, he might have reached Goliath's "impossible" height by age 25-26 had he lived. Adams may have done so without the crippling effects of Wadlow's medical causality were it not for medical intervention.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Wed 22 Jan, 2014 7:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Seven and a half feet is a hell of a lot shorter than nine feet. It is physiologically impossible for a human to grow to nine feet tall and still be able to walk.
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Peter Anderson




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PostPosted: Wed 22 Jan, 2014 8:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For what it's worth, I feel like anyone who is strong enough to effectively wield a 15+ pound spear (or any other weapon) would be better served by using an average-sized weapon and using their significant strength to deliver more powerful blows.
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Henrik Zoltan Toth




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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2014 3:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's funny, I made a peleset spear of B35 roundsteal and the Goliath version based on artifacts found in Gad, for a new reenactment group of the hungarian babtist church. Hand forged, I needed 3 helpers for the big one. The baptists calculated from the Book of the Kings that the "speariron" had a weight of 7 kg. I reached after grinding 5, 8 kg (the spearhead and the spearshoe together)

The small was put on an elm, the bigger one on ash.



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Mark Griffin




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PostPosted: Thu 23 Jan, 2014 5:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Blimey, I hesitate to say the word 'solved' but that looks like a neat solution! I see a whole new range of outsized biblical character re-enactment opening up before me :-)
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Sheldon Rhodes




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PostPosted: Wed 26 Jul, 2017 7:29 pm    Post subject: Goliath's spear - Did it         Reply with quote

Well, it took a few years and a LOT of research and money, but we did it. We have made Goliath's spear as Biblically accurate as possible and that going with a 9' 9" giant.

The project ended up getting a lot of people involved but I think you will like what we came up with.

We have actually made 6 of these and giving 3 away. Yes, giving them away.

You can learn more and see more pictures at www.GoliathsSpear.com The site is fairly new and we still have a lot to add to it but at least you will get the idea and hopefully will visit often to see what has been added.

We have started taking it to a few churches. We are having a "Launch the Spear" banquet Sept. 22 and that will kick off the first "official" tour Sept. 23 - Oct. 8. We will have it in 5 states at a different location each night. BTW, Sept. 22 is the first day of Fall. Being this is Goliath's spear, we wanted to do the launch in the "fall".

We have huge plans for this beast and the display we have for it already is impressive if I do say so myself. It sure hasn't been all me. There has been a lot of other people involved to get it to the "point" it is at now.

Here are some stats for you:
Head - Iron 16 pounds 11 ounces
Shaft - Oak 2" x 10'
Counterweight - Iron 6 pounds 1.2 ounces
Total weight - 33 pounds 12 ounces
Total length - 12' 7"

If you see me coming down the road, move over. Eek![/url]



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Chris Allen with the spear and his family.

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Check out the size of the head. Not the babies!

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The man who made the shaft(s).

Everything works, nothing hurts, life is good.
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Wed 26 Jul, 2017 9:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not sure what to say about it as far as realistically usable, but it's interesting and impressive.

I guess if a 10' giant was proportionally strong or a Louis Cyr they might be able to handle it.

Louis Cyr wasn't a giant but he was the strongest man in the 19th century:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Cyr

So an exceptionally strong person might be able to handle the spear.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Thu 27 Jul, 2017 3:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

But for how long? Picking it up and making a couple of stabs with it isn't the same as using it in a prolonged battle.
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Ben Joy




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PostPosted: Thu 27 Jul, 2017 10:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan, Mart, and Jean bring up an interesting concept of whether it's really practical and usable, even for someone of the appropriate size, but there's something to consider here for each concept of power and health:

Goliath, from what we know, hadn't really fought in a warlike situation. If taking the bible somewhat literally (as mentioned by the OP) then for 40 days Goliath was challenging the Israelites to send out a champion for single combat to decide the potential battle at hand. That's not fighting in war, that's a duel; and we know that duels are VERY different from fighting an actual battle for hours on end. Goliath could have known that he's not capable of fighting an extended engagement, but could easily crush a single typical soldier in a quick melee duel.

It becomes a situation where a proverbial bully picks the fight that he knows he can win, not the one he knows he will lose. In turn, he was outsmarted and fought in a situation with someone who didn't engage in melee, but at range; and he lost.

In another note, such a massive spear wouldn't even need to be used like a normal spear as much as smash the person like it's a baseball bat or club, and then impale them. Who says that it absolutely needed to be wielded with the finesse of a more typical spear of the era? Something that massive would hurt just to have it fall on you because someone bumped the weapons rack. For all we know his gear was built to be just as intimidating as his own frame. That just leads back into the fact that he wasn't set up to fight a battle, but to fight a duel.

On the other hand, people like Andre the Giant, who have gigantism, can have lots of medical issues. However, those medical issues tend to set in a bit later in life . . . for example Andre the Giants health started to catch up to him in his late 30's. A fighting person in their prime would be recruited as early as mid to late teens in the era of Goliath. Andre the Giant was capable of immense feats of strength and agility all the way to his late 20's / early 30's. Therefore Goliath could theoretically have been in absolute peak fighting form, fully capable of fighting with massive equipment scaled to his frame, at a younger age. Goliath could have just been a bright star with a quick burnout . . . if he wasn't killed by a sling bullet to the head and decapitated.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regardless, it's a fascinating piece. Well, pieces . . . since six of them have apparently been made. It certainly puts the story in a unique light; and makes the theoretical terror the Israelites faced, at such a man, much more tangible.

"Men take only their needs into consideration, never their abilities." -Napoleon Bonaparte
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Fri 28 Jul, 2017 1:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Andre the Giant was only seven feet tall. As I already said, there is a hell of a big difference between seven feet and nine feet. It is a physiological impossibility for a human to grow to nine feet in height and still be able to walk. The other problem is that the text is invalidated by earlier versions. The Dead Sea Scrolls is the oldest version of the Bible. If there are any discrepancies between this text and the others then this one must take precedence. Goliath was 6'9" not 9' tall.
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Graham Shearlaw





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PostPosted: Fri 28 Jul, 2017 4:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Andre the Giant's real hight was likely only 7'0 but look at how he was billed at '4 or more above that.
And that really helps put David and Sauls size in to focus, there both just normal men.
Sure David might of been a bit taller then normal, a few inchs but look at the photo's showing how Andre makes even big men look small.

There are good records of humans up to a hight of up to 8'1.(see Morteza Mehrzad or Brahim Takioullah)
But at such a hight people often suffer from joint issues, look at how many giants walk with a cane.
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Gregory T Kallok




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PostPosted: Fri 28 Jul, 2017 7:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

[list=]I am wondering that his spear head could have indeed been 15 pounds. It is entirely possible that it was mounted on a "short Shaft" much like a Zulu "ikqwa" This would of course been wielded single handed. Also consider that it's a very bad idea to throw ones spear because you might not get it back!!!. Also , why would he carry both a throwing spear AND a javilin???. I have a design in my head that would very much approximate my concept. Now I need a blacksmith!!!![/list]
Keep your nose in the Wind and your eye on the skyline.
Del Q
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 28 Jul, 2017 10:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gregory T Kallok wrote:
[list=]I am wondering that his spear head could have indeed been 15 pounds. It is entirely possible that it was mounted on a "short Shaft" much like a Zulu "ikqwa" This would of course been wielded single handed. Also consider that it's a very bad idea to throw ones spear because you might not get it back!!!. Also , why would he carry both a throwing spear AND a javilin???. I have a design in my head that would very much approximate my concept. Now I need a blacksmith!!!![/list]


When scaling something 2 or 3 times normal size for a " GIANT " weapon one doesn't have to make all the dimensions equally multiplied in each dimension: The spear head can be made 3X longer and 3X wider but not any thicker than a normal spear. The socket can be 2" in diameter for the really stout shaft but the wall thickness of the socket need not be increased by much.

So the weight of the spear head could be cut by half and still have the same profile.

Without going into religious belief about how literally one should or must believe the description of the size of the spear or the size of Goliath, the story before being written down probably centuries after being in oral tradition might tend to be subject to some exaggeration. Wink

Goliath at 6'5" or 7' in period might have been considered a giant if the average male warrior was closer to 5'5" and weighing 140 pounds.

If Goliath also had a reputation of also being very strong, and probably skilled in the combat style of spear and shield of the period he would have been a very scary guy to face equipped in the same way by an untrained in this kind of duel fighting like David as a youth.

Brains beat brawn in this case, and the fact that the rules of the duel didn't force David to fight using spear and shield plus armour.

I could compare making such a huge spear as representing the spear of the probably exaggerated legend and not far from the huge weapons shown in many computer video fighting games !

Dan and others are using " Real World " criteria about what makes a realistic and usable weapon.

Even someone strong enough to use an overweight weapon for the short duration of a duel would still be faster and more effective with a lighter weapon that would not tire one out as quickly and be faster in attack or defense.

Producing a huge and heavy spear like this that feels impossible to use by " normal people " in a real fight for more than a few seconds is a way of making a statement about how awesome and impressive it would be if one takes the tale literally.

So psychologically and emotionally the purpose of making such a weapon is different than making a weapon that one can argue is practical.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Ben Joy




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PostPosted: Fri 28 Jul, 2017 11:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Andre the Giant was only seven feet tall. As I already said, there is a hell of a big difference between seven feet and nine feet. It is a physiological impossibility for a human to grow to nine feet in height and still be able to walk. The other problem is that the text is invalidated by earlier versions. The Dead Sea Scrolls is the oldest version of the Bible. If there are any discrepancies between this text and the others then this one must take precedence. Goliath was 6'9" not 9' tall.

There's a reason I stipulated pretty much everything I was saying with "theoretical" and saying it's something to consider. I'm right with you that it's highly improbable for someone to be 9'+, but given the OPs intentions, I wanted to highlight some of the possibilities of such a weapon's existence.

Someone just capable of swinging around such a huge spear even a few times would be pretty intimidating to see, if you're unaware of the limits of the person swinging it.

Graham Shearlaw wrote:
Andre the Giant's real hight was likely only 7'0 but look at how he was billed at '4 or more above that.
And that really helps put David and Sauls size in to focus, there both just normal men.
Sure David might of been a bit taller then normal, a few inchs but look at the photo's showing how Andre makes even big men look small.

There are good records of humans up to a hight of up to 8'1.(see Morteza Mehrzad or Brahim Takioullah)
But at such a hight people often suffer from joint issues, look at how many giants walk with a cane.

Very true; and it's likely that time caused the legend to grow into levels of exaggeration that created the 9'+ version of Goliath. However, I think it is again worth noting that a lot of the health issues with gigantism tend to set in a little later in life . . . late 20's to early 30's. That's plenty of time for the typical fighting man of Goliath's era to be fully capable of combat.

Even if they weren't 9'+ in size, some late teens to early twenties giant would be pretty scary to be on the opposite end of, while they're still in the peak of health.

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Without going into religious belief about how literally one should or must believe the description of the size of the spear or the size of Goliath, the story before being written down probably centuries after being in oral tradition might tend to be subject to some exaggeration. Wink

Goliath at 6'5" or 7' in period might have been considered a giant if the average male warrior was closer to 5'5" and weighing 140 pounds.

If Goliath also had a reputation of also being very strong, and probably skilled in the combat style of spear and shield of the period he would have been a very scary guy to face equipped in the same way by an untrained in this kind of duel fighting like David as a youth.

Brains beat brawn in this case, and the fact that the rules of the duel didn't force David to fight using spear and shield plus armour.

I could compare making such a huge spear as representing the spear of the probably exaggerated legend and not far from the huge weapons shown in many computer video fighting games !

I think that's one reason why the facet of the "bully" scenario is worthy of note. It doesn't take much rumor mongering to create a scary reputation, and as far as we know Goliath didn't do any real fighting before the encounter with David. It wasn't like he had the reputation of being this unstoppable force that had been in battles X, Y, and Z. He was just some huge monstor that had shown up with the army and started boasting challenges of a 1v1 duel to settle the battle.

Maybe the whole tactic was putting this giant out there, with the fabricated reputation of being invincible, bully the enemy army, and get them to submit because they couldn't/wouldn't sent forth a champion to face Goliath?

Jean Thibodeau wrote:

Dan and others are using " Real World " criteria about what makes a realistic and usable weapon.

Even someone strong enough to use an overweight weapon for the short duration of a duel would still be faster and more effective with a lighter weapon that would not tire one out as quickly and be faster in attack or defense.

Producing a huge and heavy spear like this that feels impossible to use by " normal people " in a real fight for more than a few seconds is a way of making a statement about how awesome and impressive it would be if one takes the tale literally.

So psychologically and emotionally the purpose of making such a weapon is different than making a weapon that one can argue is practical.

Continuing the previous point, it makes you wonder if, for all we know, the massive gear was made mostly for show. After all, Goliath was laughing at David and didn't think he was a serious challenger. Next thing you know he's suddenly dead. If he thought he was serious would he have dropped the massive weapons and grabbed something more practical? On the other hand, was he just so massive and powerful that he would have swung the spear around like a baseball bat and then impaled the poor SOB on the other end after knocking them over?

Regardless, I completely agree that the psychological warfare facet of the gear of Goliath is certainly worthy of note.

"Men take only their needs into consideration, never their abilities." -Napoleon Bonaparte
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Fri 28 Jul, 2017 3:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

We are talking about a scenario that never existed in the text. The oldest and hence most accurate version of the Bible says that Goliath was 6'9". Even a biblical literalist must admit that.
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Ben Joy




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PostPosted: Fri 28 Jul, 2017 4:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
We are talking about a scenario that never existed in the text. The oldest and hence most accurate version of the Bible says that Goliath was 6'9". Even a biblical literalist must admit that.


Actually, the funny thing is the story of David and Goliath is Old Testament . . . which is drawn from the original Jewish holy books and stories. Those actually predate the dead sea scrolls, which the earliest are stated to date around 2-300 BC/BCE. Also, many of the Dead Sea scrolls are not in the greatest of condition and subject to issue because of this. Both the Vatican AND the Jewish Kabbalah have texts much older than the Dead Sea scrolls; and they don't let anyone look at them other then the highest members of their respective orders.

Now, I'm not saying that the Dead Sea scrolls are worthless, but I'm saying that your claim of them being the oldest "bible" on record, since the stories of David originate in Judaism, don't mean much here. Religions keep secrets for a reason, and part of that reason may or may not be to add to the legend, myth, and grandiosity of their stories. Regardless, I wouldn't put all of my faith into one version of the text and believe it's the defining literature on the subject.

From what I can find from several Jewish sources they all list Goliath as Six Cubits and a Span (9'+). Now, again, am I saying that history hasn't exaggerated these measurements? No. However, there is more than one "credible" source on this besides the Dead Sea scrolls; and some of them are older. Therefore, without any of us being there, all we have to go on are written accounts; and there are multiple versions of those. However, the Jewish records possibly have more credence here than Christian versions (given the origins of the story), and all of those that I've found say six cubits and a span.

Due to all of this, it's horribly open to interpretation, there are multiple versions, and there's also the possibility that absolutely none of them tell the exact truth of the situation. Such is the fate of all stories over time via exaggeration, misinterpretation, and/or manipulation.

For quick reference of some online versions:

Chabad-Lubavitch . . . a site about the teachings of Judaism and the stories contained therein.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid...oliath.htm

FJMC: Federation of Jewish Men's Club . . . a site about teaching Jewish men about Judaism and being good Jews.
http://www.fjmc.org/content/story-david-goliath-0

The Jewish Virtual Library (King David's link has the description of Goliath as 9', but included the Goliath link for reference)
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/goliath
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/king-david

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regardless, the men made what they made due to the materials they found and what they thought was the best interpretation. No matter what, it's a seriously massive spear and nothing to scoff at. If someone could wield it, I wouldn't want to be on the wrong end of that weapon.

"Men take only their needs into consideration, never their abilities." -Napoleon Bonaparte
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E Stafford




PostPosted: Fri 28 Jul, 2017 6:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

what no one's mentioning here is that the cubit had varying lengths. it could be anywhere from 18-20 odd inches. So, depending on which one was ACTUALLY used (not what the commentaries SAY was used, there's a difference) you could lose half a foot easily. As has been mentioned, seven feet is just about the tallest someone can get and still stay combat ready.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Sat 29 Jul, 2017 1:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben Joy wrote:
Regardless, I wouldn't put all of my faith into one version of the text and believe it's the defining literature on the subject.

I'm not. The Greek Old Testament says the same thing.

Quote:
For quick reference of some online versions:

Chabad-Lubavitch . . . a site about the teachings of Judaism and the stories contained therein.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid...oliath.htm

FJMC: Federation of Jewish Men's Club . . . a site about teaching Jewish men about Judaism and being good Jews.
http://www.fjmc.org/content/story-david-goliath-0

The Jewish Virtual Library (King David's link has the description of Goliath as 9', but included the Goliath link for reference)
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/goliath
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/king-david

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regardless, the men made what they made due to the materials they found and what they thought was the best interpretation. No matter what, it's a seriously massive spear and nothing to scoff at. If someone could wield it, I wouldn't want to be on the wrong end of that weapon.



Thanks for the references. I'll take a look

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Dan D'Silva





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PostPosted: Sat 29 Jul, 2017 3:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben Joy wrote:
Maybe the whole tactic was putting this giant out there, with the fabricated reputation of being invincible, bully the enemy army, and get them to submit because they couldn't/wouldn't sent forth a champion to face Goliath?

Gotta say, wagering your country's independence on a paper tiger sounds like an act of either extreme desperation or stupidity. It may work for a schoolyard bully, but if you're challenging a whole other nation, you ought to expect they'll produce someone willing to call your bluff.
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