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Hector A.





Joined: 22 Dec 2013

Posts: 143

PostPosted: Sat 07 Feb, 2015 2:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mike Ruhala wrote:
For $1,100 the Talhoffer or Ringeck with half-wire waisted grip would be a visually attractive era-appropriate choice and an awesome fighting weapon. The downside is they aren't as well suited to the cutting feats that seem to be prevalent in competition right now.

Obviously Albion is the dominant sharp brand in HEMA by far and I've had the chance to try a lot of their swords but I'm actually giving Arms and Armor's Durer a chance right now. The basics are there, with a few modifications I think it could be a real contender.


If he goes that route then i suggest the Ringeck over the Talhoffer, it is considerably better in the cut. But in all honesty they wont be fun cutters, to thick and narrow for it.

For his needs as stated he should be looking at the regent, earl, brescia also the crecy ( that he doesnt like ), those fit the bill perfectly.
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Robert W Tucker




Location: Bozeman MT
Joined: 16 Nov 2008

Posts: 28

PostPosted: Sat 07 Feb, 2015 6:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,
I just got my Principe yesterday and after going through guards and swinging it a bit why wouldn't it work for liechtenauer or ringeck style swordsman ship it feels great in the hand its not any more floppy then the gallowglass ? it thrust well cuts you could use it for some half sword technique maybe not murder stroke but it seems well suited to unarmoured longsword combat its not slow in recovery what about it don't you think would work ?
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Tom Sasser




Location: Virginia
Joined: 04 Mar 2014

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sat 07 Feb, 2015 7:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mike Ruhala wrote:
For $1,100 the Talhoffer or Ringeck with half-wire waisted grip would be a visually attractive era-appropriate choice and an awesome fighting weapon. The downside is they aren't as well suited to the cutting feats that seem to be prevalent in competition right now.

Obviously Albion is the dominant sharp brand in HEMA by far and I've had the chance to try a lot of their swords but I'm actually giving Arms and Armor's Durer a chance right now. The basics are there, with a few modifications I think it could be a real contender.


1) On the Durer:

What does it do that the Durer do that the Regent, Munich and Earl don't? My concern is that it's going to be a floppy blade. I dislike this trait about my ATrim AT1555. The price is in line with what I want to spend and I can get a scabbard for it. Then again, I can build a kydex scabbard for it, but leather looks better.

What modifications would you do to the Durer? My thoughts would be to change the crossguard out to something flat and slightly curved toward the tip (similar to my Ensifer feder) and change the pommel out to something more pear or fish-tail shaped.

2) I am not really getting what the Principe cannot do other than half-swording. What does "war sword" mean in context of the time and how would it influence usage today? Does the Principe have trouble with maille? I haven't done that at all and am not enthusiastic about the technique. Is it more that the blade is very ponderous and not so good for switching directions? I guess I'd be able to tell if I did a 120/80 drill with one. Perhaps it's like the massive difference in behavior between the Spada de Zogho and Ensifier light: the Ensifer swung so easily that I dumped the Spada quickly.
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Mike Ruhala




Location: Stuart, Florida
Joined: 24 Jul 2011

Posts: 335

PostPosted: Sat 07 Feb, 2015 12:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are modern enthusiasts that try to draw a distinction between a "war sword" and a longsword" but it isn't anything that's actually found in the fechtbucher. In fact the received teachings actually say that any sword wielded in two hands is a "longsword," including the schlachtschwert. These same people will try and say that "great swords" like a XIIa or XIIIa aren't appropriate for KDF but 3227.a tells us that the art was already hundreds of years old in the 14th century so guess what swords would have been available to early practitioners...

In short the Principe is not large compared to many swords that were historically used with KDF. The wide base of the blade and escutcheon(or whatever you'd like to call it) at the center of the cross will actually aid in thumbing the blade which is important for some core techniques such as the zwerchau. An XVIIIc like the Principe is going to have more momentum than something like a XVa such as the Talhoffer which means its reset time will be a bit higher but it's also going to pack more wallop so you'll adjust your tactics accordingly and choose the specific techniques that play to the Principe's strengths.

What's definitely true is that if you're trying to do what I call "hard historical fencing," recreating the style of a specific ancient master or specific time and place, some sword configurations would have been more typical than others. If you're studying a late 15th c. master in that way then a XIIa wouldn't be appropriate to the era even if the sword configuration is otherwise compatible with the art.

I looked long and hard at the Munich but ultimately decided to try the Durer first because even though the blade widths are similar between the two the Durer carries more of that width to the COP which will give it an advantage in edge angle for the cut. The Munich appears to be biased towards thrusting with its more aggressive profile taper.

Other than that it's mostly about looks. A&A put some effort into attractive finials on the Durer, Albion went for a plain bent cross. Yeah, I've seen one antique XVIIIb like that but the Munich is $1,600+... if I'm dropping that kind of dough I want a little more eye candy! I want to like the sword but ultimately it comes across as an unfinished work to me.

The Earl and Regent probably are better cutters than the Munich or Durer but once again the crosses... they just don't look like they belong on those swords. The Regent would work better if it made it to production with the finials shown in the original artwork, they weren't just for looks they had a purpose. The Earl's cross is a little better than the Regent's IMO, the sword could benefit from a cross leather though. Other than that the grip shape is very nice on both swords. If it doesn't work out with the Durer I'd probably go to an Earl next and have some hilt work done.

As far as the Durer goes I asked for a cross leather and a modified grip that has a little more pronounced waisting than the pic on the site, these small changes make the sword look a lot better. It wouldn't hurt to request a bit more polishing on the hilt components, I didn't because I figured I could do it myself if I was really worried about it. Other than that it should be peened construction with no threads anywhere on the tang.

People hype up "floppy" blades way too much in both cutters and rapiers, I'm convinced they're using their swords incorrectly. I've got years of training in classical foil fencing, those blades are as light and bendy as they come yet the art relies heavily on what we'd call binding and winding in KDF and it works fine if you're using correct technique. Advanced practitioners can really slam you around and even disarm you with those dainty little blades. It's just the same with sharp longswords, Albion's Baron will out-cut the Brescia Spadona for half the price yet the Baron's relatively thin and flexible from the COP to the point.

The Durer's blade is relatively thin with very little distal taper to it, I wouldn't call it floppy but it will flex. I was half afraid this thing was going to be a Hanwei Tinker Bastard Sword for 5 times the price but they're actually quite different in feel, in one hand the Durer feels like some of my antique sabers. In two hands the blade presence and dynamic handling inspire confidence in the cut, I hope to use it on a few tatami mats next week.
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Tom Sasser




Location: Virginia
Joined: 04 Mar 2014

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sat 07 Feb, 2015 3:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mike Ruhala wrote:
There are modern enthusiasts that try to draw a distinction between a "war sword" and a longsword" but it isn't anything that's actually found in the fechtbucher. In fact the received teachings actually say that any sword wielded in two hands is a "longsword," including the schlachtschwert. These same people will try and say that "great swords" like a XIIa or XIIIa aren't appropriate for KDF but 3227.a tells us that the art was already hundreds of years old in the 14th century so guess what swords would have been available to early practitioners...

In short the Principe is not large compared to many swords that were historically used with KDF. The wide base of the blade and escutcheon(or whatever you'd like to call it) at the center of the cross will actually aid in thumbing the blade which is important for some core techniques such as the zwerchau. An XVIIIc like the Principe is going to have more momentum than something like a XVa such as the Talhoffer which means its reset time will be a bit higher but it's also going to pack more wallop so you'll adjust your tactics accordingly and choose the specific techniques that play to the Principe's strengths.

What's definitely true is that if you're trying to do what I call "hard historical fencing," recreating the style of a specific ancient master or specific time and place, some sword configurations would have been more typical than others. If you're studying a late 15th c. master in that way then a XIIa wouldn't be appropriate to the era even if the sword configuration is otherwise compatible with the art.

I looked long and hard at the Munich but ultimately decided to try the Durer first because even though the blade widths are similar between the two the Durer carries more of that width to the COP which will give it an advantage in edge angle for the cut. The Munich appears to be biased towards thrusting with its more aggressive profile taper.

Other than that it's mostly about looks. A&A put some effort into attractive finials on the Durer, Albion went for a plain bent cross. Yeah, I've seen one antique XVIIIb like that but the Munich is $1,600+... if I'm dropping that kind of dough I want a little more eye candy! I want to like the sword but ultimately it comes across as an unfinished work to me.

The Earl and Regent probably are better cutters than the Munich or Durer but once again the crosses... they just don't look like they belong on those swords. The Regent would work better if it made it to production with the finials shown in the original artwork, they weren't just for looks they had a purpose. The Earl's cross is a little better than the Regent's IMO, the sword could benefit from a cross leather though. Other than that the grip shape is very nice on both swords. If it doesn't work out with the Durer I'd probably go to an Earl next and have some hilt work done.

As far as the Durer goes I asked for a cross leather and a modified grip that has a little more pronounced waisting than the pic on the site, these small changes make the sword look a lot better. It wouldn't hurt to request a bit more polishing on the hilt components, I didn't because I figured I could do it myself if I was really worried about it. Other than that it should be peened construction with no threads anywhere on the tang.

People hype up "floppy" blades way too much in both cutters and rapiers, I'm convinced they're using their swords incorrectly. I've got years of training in classical foil fencing, those blades are as light and bendy as they come yet the art relies heavily on what we'd call binding and winding in KDF and it works fine if you're using correct technique. Advanced practitioners can really slam you around and even disarm you with those dainty little blades. It's just the same with sharp longswords, Albion's Baron will out-cut the Brescia Spadona for half the price yet the Baron's relatively thin and flexible from the COP to the point.

The Durer's blade is relatively thin with very little distal taper to it, I wouldn't call it floppy but it will flex. I was half afraid this thing was going to be a Hanwei Tinker Bastard Sword for 5 times the price but they're actually quite different in feel, in one hand the Durer feels like some of my antique sabers. In two hands the blade presence and dynamic handling inspire confidence in the cut, I hope to use it on a few tatami mats next week.


Thanks! That helps clear a few things up.
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