Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Authentic mail pictures Reply to topic
This is a Spotlight Topic Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 24, 25, 26  Next 
Author Message
Kai Lawson




Location: Madison, WI
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 492

PostPosted: Fri 13 Dec, 2013 2:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Really cool to see all these mail shirts and fragments! Such a cool armor. These few posts have given me more visual material than hours of searching. Kudos to all who contributed or will contribute.

I know that it is a mail shirt --I was just comparing it visually to the closest thing that came to mind. Given it's estimated date of manufacture and the possibility of augmenting it with other armor types/layers, I wonder if it was actually used or not for combat. The links would be weaker individually, but given the density of the weave, is the mail actually weaker (compared to cuts and/or thrusts?) I imagine that it would resist slices or slashing motions well, but I feel like it would deform and the links would rip apart if one were to give a good thrust…

It would be interesting to model different link sizes and round vs flat with both demi- and fully riveted mails on a computer and run combative impact tests to get a ROUGH idea of link size to weapon resistance (of course other factors also play in here too).

"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
View user's profile Send private message
Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 804

PostPosted: Sat 14 Dec, 2013 2:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kai Lawson wrote:
Given it's estimated date of manufacture and the possibility of augmenting it with other armor types/layers, I wonder if it was actually used or not for combat. The links would be weaker individually, but given the density of the weave, is the mail actually weaker (compared to cuts and/or thrusts?) I imagine that it would resist slices or slashing motions well, but I feel like it would deform and the links would rip apart if one were to give a good thrust…


My feeling is that not all armor was constructed for "combat', I think as with other cultures there was a need for "walking around armor", a type of personal defense that would make someone think twice about attacking with a small knife / dagger or concealable weapon etc. An armor did not necessarily have to be bullet proof to cause the needed psychological effect on a potential attacker. A man with a weapon feels like he has an advantage when attacking an unaware and unarmored opponent, add the element of armor and the attacker now has something to think about.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,230

PostPosted: Sat 14 Dec, 2013 2:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A civilian wearing any kind of armour around most towns back then would have garnered the same reaction as if you walked into Pizza Hut wearing ballistic armour today. If you were involved in a fight and you were wearing armour then the authorities would automatically assume that your actions were pre-meditated regardless of who really started it. Another reason why civilian armour was not permitted was because the authorities assume that you are not wearing it for self-defense but to make it harder for them to apprehend you when you commit a crime.
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
View user's profile Send private message
Benjamin H. Abbott




Location: New Mexico
Joined: 28 Feb 2004

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,192

PostPosted: Sat 14 Dec, 2013 3:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
A civilian wearing any kind of armour around most towns back then would have garnered the same reaction as if you walked into Pizza Hut wearing ballistic armour today. If you were involved in a fight and you were wearing armour then the authorities would automatically assume that your actions were pre-meditated regardless of who really started it. Another reason why civilian armour was not permitted was because the authorities assume that you are not wearing it for self-defense but to make it harder for them to apprehend you when you commit a crime.


Maybe, but none of this prevented folks from wearing armor in the civilian context. Mail appears to have been favored for civilian use, perhaps because of how easy it was to conceal. Such hidden armor could be called a privy coat; George Silver specifically counseled duelists to avoid revealing their privy coats. We have various accounts of such hidden armor. At other times, folks openly wore armor in urban environments. In 1623 in Madrid, fifteen men in mail shirts and iron/steel caps attacked Sir Kenelm Digby and two friends.

Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising
I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.
To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking:
Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!
View user's profile Send private message
Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 804

PostPosted: Sat 14 Dec, 2013 4:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
A civilian wearing any kind of armour around most towns back then would have garnered the same reaction as if you walked into Pizza Hut wearing ballistic armour today. If you were involved in a fight and you were wearing armour then the authorities would automatically assume that your actions were pre-meditated regardless of who really started it. Another reason why civilian armour was not permitted was because the authorities assume that you are not wearing it for self-defense but to make it harder for them to apprehend you when you commit a crime.
Dan, someone who could afford an armor of this type probably would have been the "authority", and as such would not have had to worry about anyone's reaction. People of a certain status were / are exempt from the rules of an average civilian. In our time many rich / famous / powerful people have body guards, drive armored cars and wear protective clothing in public situations.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,281

PostPosted: Sat 14 Dec, 2013 5:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'homme_arm%C3%A9
L'homme, l'homme, l'homme armé,
L'homme armé
L'homme armé doibt on doubter, doibt on doubter.
On a fait partout crier,
Que chascun se viengne armer
D'un haubregon de fer.


The man, the man, the armed man,
The armed man
The armed man should be feared, should be feared.
Everywhere it has been proclaimed
That each man shall arm himself
With a coat of iron mail.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
View user's profile Send private message
Jonathon Hanson




Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Joined: 11 Mar 2010

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Tue 17 Dec, 2013 8:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

When looking at the pictures of Eric Schmid's mail and the historical examples, I have noticed that the rings look to be flattened quite differently than the Indian made rings I have worked with before. Compared to these modern rings, Erik's rings look to be less flattened around the ring and on the overlap itself. The overlaps seem to transition smoothly from the wire without an obvious hammer mark to them, yet the overlaps are flattened more than the rest of the ring. All told, it's a noticeable difference from modern machine made Indian mail.

My question is this: how does Erik go about flattening his rings to look this way? As in, does he have the rings pre-overlapped or not, what kind of hammer does he use, and does he use a piston or anything like that? I have tried on several occasions to make mail from scratch using pre-annealed 16g wire, but the flattening has never worked out for me. Either the overlaps come undone when struck or the ring isn't flattened right so it turns into a pancake. I also have issues with uneven flattening, so while Erik's rings have uniform width all around mine get flattened more in some areas than others. Is there anyone here with experience with this, maybe Erik himself or someone who does this too that could point me in the right direction? Do I need to anneal my wire some more, get a different size hammer, strike at a certain angle, or something else? I'd really appreciate being able to craft mail by knowing the vital process of flattening the rings correctly.
View user's profile Send private message
Stanley Hauser





Joined: 17 Sep 2013

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Tue 17 Dec, 2013 8:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jonathon Hanson wrote:
When looking at the pictures of Eric Schmid's mail and the historical examples, I have noticed that the rings look to be flattened quite differently than the Indian made rings I have worked with before. Compared to these modern rings, Erik's rings look to be less flattened around the ring and on the overlap itself. The overlaps seem to transition smoothly from the wire without an obvious hammer mark to them, yet the overlaps are flattened more than the rest of the ring. All told, it's a noticeable difference from modern machine made Indian mail.

My question is this: how does Erik go about flattening his rings to look this way? As in, does he have the rings pre-overlapped or not, what kind of hammer does he use, and does he use a piston or anything like that? I have tried on several occasions to make mail from scratch using pre-annealed 16g wire, but the flattening has never worked out for me. Either the overlaps come undone when struck or the ring isn't flattened right so it turns into a pancake. I also have issues with uneven flattening, so while Erik's rings have uniform width all around mine get flattened more in some areas than others. Is there anyone here with experience with this, maybe Erik himself or someone who does this too that could point me in the right direction? Do I need to anneal my wire some more, get a different size hammer, strike at a certain angle, or something else? I'd really appreciate being able to craft mail by knowing the vital process of flattening the rings correctly.


You know Jonathon, I have had many of these same questions myself. All I remember reading about Erik is that he uses a hammer, and that he doesn't quite understand why people use pistons. What I have noticed about hammers is that most of them have a slightly curved surface, so unless you make or buy a hammer with a flush head I don't think just any hammer would do. I also don't know whether they should be flattened first and THEN overlapped, but my experiments so far have shown that this may not be necessary. If the rings are soft enough the ends of the overlap just seem to stick together. However, because mail was traditionally made from wrought iron and not mild steel, I do not know if this would have affected the process. Of course, mail was made for so long across so many cultures, I doubt that there was a single way of doing it.

Also, I know why you may be having trouble with your rings...even though you are using pre-annealed wire, the coiling and cutting of the rings work-hardens them enough as to require another annealing BEFORE you attempt to flatten. Try stringing the cut rings on a length of wire and annealing with a torch. Once they are cool give them another try, I think you'll find that the overlaps "stick" together much more consistently.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Stanley Hauser





Joined: 17 Sep 2013

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Tue 17 Dec, 2013 9:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Also, Eric, thanks again for the pinterest page btw. Where did you find such a collection of pictures!?

Have you noticed that most of them are either High/Late Medieval or Roman, with very few being from 0 - 1000 a.d.? I wondered at first if this was due to the older Medieval mail simply having corroded away, but that doesn't seem to make sense considering there are also examples of Roman mail.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 2,245

PostPosted: Wed 18 Dec, 2013 2:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stanley Hauser wrote:
Also, Eric, thanks again for the pinterest page btw. Where did you find such a collection of pictures!?

Have you noticed that most of them are either High/Late Medieval or Roman, with very few being from 0 - 1000 a.d.? I wondered at first if this was due to the older Medieval mail simply having corroded away, but that doesn't seem to make sense considering there are also examples of Roman mail.


It is logical that there is much more Roman mail than early medieval. Romans equipped whole units with mail and early medieval kingdoms couldn't afford that and only the richer warriors wore mail...
View user's profile Send private message
Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 804

PostPosted: Thu 19 Dec, 2013 12:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Stanley Hauser wrote:
Also, Eric, thanks again for the pinterest page btw. Where did you find such a collection of pictures!?

Stanley, I try to save certain images and links for future use, lately I have noticed that when I go to look at an old thread from this and other forums the images are gone and / or the links are dead, a lot of good information has been lost, possibly forever.

Considering how long mail was in use in and how much if it must have been made over hundreds of years, there are surprisingly few images available and even fewer clear, close up images. If any forum member has some personal images of mail from any culture or interesting links to images that they would like to share this would be a good place to do it.

I have added a lot more images since I first posted this gallery here.
http://www.pinterest.com/samuraiantiques/european-mail-armor/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Kai Lawson




Location: Madison, WI
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 492

PostPosted: Thu 19 Dec, 2013 6:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tangentially related to this, does anyone know if the either picture is supposed to be mail over plate? Are there any extant mail coats made to be worn so/tailored to perhaps fit over a breastplate? Additionally, do the images attached seem to indicate that liner-less mail was taken off in part by turning it inside out like a kid with a t-shirt?

Am I way off base here?



 Attachment: 37.7 KB
386-9_gallery.jpg


 Attachment: 163.75 KB
[ Download ]

"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
View user's profile Send private message
Stanley Hauser





Joined: 17 Sep 2013

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Thu 19 Dec, 2013 7:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kai Lawson wrote:
Tangentially related to this, does anyone know if the either picture is supposed to be mail over plate? Are there any extant mail coats made to be worn so/tailored to perhaps fit over a breastplate? Additionally, do the images attached seem to indicate that liner-less mail was taken off in part by turning it inside out like a kid with a t-shirt?

Am I way off base here?


The first picture seems to depict a mail coat being worn over a gambeson, but I can see why you think it may be a breastplate.

As for the second picture, I think it is entirely possible that artists of the time may not have completely understood the workings of armor and may have taken liberties in their depictions. The depiction may also be an anachronism of an earlier period.

I think it is much more likely, though not necessarily likely, that breastplates were worn over mail, or at least something like a jack of plates.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 612

PostPosted: Fri 20 Dec, 2013 6:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kai Lawson wrote:
Tangentially related to this, does anyone know if the either picture is supposed to be mail over plate? Are there any extant mail coats made to be worn so/tailored to perhaps fit over a breastplate? Additionally, do the images attached seem to indicate that liner-less mail was taken off in part by turning it inside out like a kid with a t-shirt?

Am I way off base here?


Context, Kai, context.

The first image is Artaxerxes assassinates Artabanus from Geneva, Bibliothèque de Genève, Ms. fr. 190/1 fol 104 (mythical tales of ancient history, in this case from Persia)

Men pull the armour off Artabanus while he his stabbed. Pretty clear concept that a sword isn't certain to penetrate mail armour of the period. Aketons... not so much.

The second image is from the Book of the Queen written by Christine de Pizan.
(Harley 4431 http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanusc...tart=4431)
It depicts a messenger from Heaven doling out arms and armour to worthy men. The man in full plate has just received a mail haubergeon while others are given helmet, shield et cetera.

Not so hard to figure out once you know what the image portays.

Cheers!
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,281

PostPosted: Fri 20 Dec, 2013 9:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kai Lawson wrote:
Additionally, do the images attached seem to indicate that liner-less mail was taken off in part by turning it inside out like a kid with a t-shirt?


Unlined mail hauberks can be removed in one of two ways: First, you can pull the neckline over your head and then shimmy to shake the mail off your body as you lean forward.

The second method has someone else roll it off by turning it inside out.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
View user's profile Send private message
Benjamin Floyd II





Joined: 13 Dec 2008

Posts: 82

PostPosted: Fri 20 Dec, 2013 12:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's a few I've taken in Sweden:


 Attachment: 128.88 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 118.27 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 100.81 KB
[ Download ]

Krieg School of Historical Swordsmanship
A HEMA Alliance Affliate
View user's profile Send private message
Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 804

PostPosted: Fri 20 Dec, 2013 1:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Benjamin Floyd II wrote:
Here's a few I've taken in Sweden:
Benjamin, any info on your photos, its quite interesting. Who made it and how old etc?



View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
S. Sebok





Joined: 13 Jan 2011
Likes: 9 pages

Posts: 82

PostPosted: Fri 20 Dec, 2013 7:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That looks quite a bit like Russian made baidana with the larger rings that are relatively flat. Could be from other spots in Europe though, I wouldn't doubt similar stuff was used elsewhere that was not as high quality as the rest of maille. I do believe when they sold maille in Europe they had bigger ringed stuff that was of lower quality similar to how stuff is sold today.
View user's profile Send private message
Len Parker





Joined: 15 Apr 2011

Posts: 315

PostPosted: Fri 20 Dec, 2013 9:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some good stuff here http://livinghistory.cz/node/155
View user's profile Send private message
Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 804

PostPosted: Fri 20 Dec, 2013 10:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

S. Sebok wrote:
That looks quite a bit like Russian made baidana with the larger rings that are relatively flat. Could be from other spots in Europe though, I wouldn't doubt similar stuff was used elsewhere that was not as high quality as the rest of maille. I do believe when they sold maille in Europe they had bigger ringed stuff that was of lower quality similar to how stuff is sold today.


It looks like baidana or very similar, its hard to tell but the one in Benjamin's photo seems to have a border of solid brass links. Here is 16th century Russian hauberk constructed with baidana.


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Authentic mail pictures
Page 3 of 26 Reply to topic
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4 ... 24, 25, 26  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2019 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum