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Eric S
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 Posted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| T. Kew wrote: | As I understand the thread of Dan's argument - and with apologies to him if I get it wrong:
1. Most mail which has survived from most periods of history is round-riveted. |
Actually most "surviving" European mail is not round riveted. If you have not seen my Pinterest image gallery of European mail then it is a good place to start, see how many round riveted European mail examples you can identify.
http://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/european-mail-armor/
Here is an example of what round riveted links look like.
| Quote: | | 2. Most mail is also hard to precisely date or localise, so it's hard to be specific. |
This is true for European mail, mail from other cultures can be much easier to identiry, There have been very few research studies on this subject. There are some records on orders placed for European mail and what country it was ordered from. The origin of some European mail is known due to who owned it etc.
| Quote: | | 3. Some samples of existing mail have signed rings which let us localise them |
Some examples of German mail have makers rings, the vast majority of European mail that I have seen has no identification.[/quote]
| Quote: | | 4. Some samples of existing mail are made of wedge riveted links, not round riveted. |
The majority of images publically available of European mail that can be identified are wedge riveted, many images are not clear or detailed enough to tell anything about the mail.
| Quote: | | 5. All of our samples from the intersection of those two categories are from southern Germany. |
I am not sure what you are saying here, what two categories?
| Quote: | | Therefore, until we can precisely guarantee that a given wedge-riveted shirt wasn't made in southern Germany, we should assume all wedge riveted mail was. |
So if you had a shipment of oranges from many different places and only a few boxs were labled "Germany" you would have to say that all of the oranges came from "Germany"?
How about not "assuming anything, how about looking at the evidence and making a decision based on what is before us. Some German wedge riveted mail was marked, otherwise there are no identifying makers marks, unless someone has some sort of proof that no other European mail making country in the world ever produced wedge riveted mail then why would you say that.
| Quote: | | It seems quite solid as a thread of logic - while we might assume it's reasonable that the Italians also made wedge riveted mail, if our only verifiable examples are from Germany, we should take that as a starting point. |
If that were the case would not Laking, Burgess, Richardson and others who have researched this subject have mentioned this? They do not because it is not correct.
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Jasper B.
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| Posted: Tue 09 Dec, 2014 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe not all that interesting because of the bad image quality, but I happened to have take some pictures of a mail shirt on display in the National Museum of Archaeology in Sofia. I tend to visit museums of interest whenever I come across one. I took the pictures because the mail shirt was made of the smallest rings I've ever seen in mail.
Unfortunately, the information tag for this piece was a one-liner in Bulgarian, which I could not decipher.
   
(Original photos are 2248x4000 pixels and +/- 2.6 MB in size, but the forum won't accept them.)
J.B.
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Bartek Strojek
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| Posted: Tue 09 Dec, 2014 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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You can post straight outside links to the pictures, so they can bee seen in full resolution.
If you have, by chance any pictures of the description, you can show them too, I'm pretty sure there are few frequently visiting Bulgarian users here.
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Jasper B.
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| Posted: Tue 09 Dec, 2014 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Bartek Strojek wrote: | | If you have, by chance any pictures of the description, you can show them too, I'm pretty sure there are few frequently visiting Bulgarian users here. |
I should have, but unfortunately I did not. I did not think of publishing them online until I stumbled upon this thread; I just took them for my own reference.
(I tried to put the original pics online, but zippyshare seems offline for me.)
J.B.
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Eric S
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| Posted: Fri 12 Dec, 2014 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Bartek Strojek wrote: | You can post straight outside links to the pictures, so they can bee seen in full resolution.
If you have, by chance any pictures of the description, you can show them too, I'm pretty sure there are few frequently visiting Bulgarian users here. |
Bartek, Jasper sent me the full sized images, unfortunately they are not clear enough to provide and additional information.
Here are links to the images.
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/9...ff23a8.jpg
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/1...fc658c.jpg
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sat 13 Dec, 2014 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| Mark Griffin wrote: | Sadly I was without my decent camera, just iPhone pics so everything depended on the lighting. I'll do some re-sizing on the shirt pics and post up.
I can see some rivets on the mail mitten but couldn't swear to all of them. Also a bit limited at the mo on doing a zoom on that image so if someone wants me to email them the originals, drop me a line. mark@griffinhistorical.com |
Mark, I finally got time to edit your images, do you have any information on this riveted mail sabaton? Age, location, origin etc.
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/5...e4a192.jpg
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Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Sun 14 Dec, 2014 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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Hi, thats Mantua B1, so 1465 ish from memory.
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Eric S
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| Posted: Tue 16 Dec, 2014 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Griffin wrote: | | Hi, thats Mantua B1, so 1465 ish from memory. |
Museo Diocesano F. Gonzaga, Mantua Italy, mid 15th century, thanks Mark.
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Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Thu 18 Dec, 2014 7:55 am Post subject: |
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here's some rather overpriced stuff on ebay at the moment..
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/c-1100-A-D-Large-Br...6016.l4276
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Thu 18 Dec, 2014 8:04 am Post subject: |
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and from my many hours rummaging in the mud, it looks river found and the best source for this kind of stuff is the thames foreshore, which usually means late 14th cent or older. 1100 is highly unlikely.
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Thu 18 Dec, 2014 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| Mark Griffin wrote: | | and from my many hours rummaging in the mud, it looks river found and the best source for this kind of stuff is the thames foreshore, which usually means late 14th cent or older. 1100 is highly unlikely. |
It looks all riveted without solids to me. So true, very unlikely to be 1100-ish...
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Eric S
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| Posted: Thu 18 Dec, 2014 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| Luka Borscak wrote: | | Mark Griffin wrote: | | and from my many hours rummaging in the mud, it looks river found and the best source for this kind of stuff is the thames foreshore, which usually means late 14th cent or older. 1100 is highly unlikely. |
It looks all riveted without solids to me. So true, very unlikely to be 1100-ish... |
You can take a close look here.
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/5...892640.jpg
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Mark Shier
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Thu 18 Dec, 2014 3:46 pm Post subject: ebay mail seller |
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His dating is best describes as "random". A lot of his "British found" looks Eastern European to me. From time to time, he has some good items- the 14C gauntlet bits he sold last year were excellent. I wish I'd bought them:(
Gaukler Medieval Wares
http://www.medievalwares.com
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Mark Griffin
Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys. Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 802
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| Posted: Fri 19 Dec, 2014 2:37 am Post subject: |
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It matches the Mary Rose stuff pretty well. I have a few fragments of my own from the Thames, ditto.
Currently working on projects ranging from Elizabethan pageants to a WW1 Tank, Victorian fairgrounds 1066 events and more. Oh and we joust loads!.. We run over 250 events for English Heritage each year plus many others for Historic Royal Palaces, Historic Scotland, the National Trust and more. If you live in the UK and are interested in working for us just drop us a line with a cv.
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Viktor Asenov
Industry Professional
Location: Bulgaria Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Sun 21 Dec, 2014 3:35 am Post subject: |
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Some bad images of the maille shirt from NAHM (National Archeological-Historical Museum) in Sofia,taken with my phone camera from the catalogue,dedicated to the anniversary from the death of the bulgarian tsar Samuil (997-1014 AD).
Regards,
Viktor
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Sun 21 Dec, 2014 4:48 am Post subject: |
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Excellent, Viktor! An extant latten shirt with silver gilt!
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sun 21 Dec, 2014 5:57 am Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | | Excellent, Viktor! An extant latten shirt with silver gilt! |
| Quote: | | European riveted mail hauberk, 10th to 11th century, detail view of the links from different sections, round riveted brass links with a silver coating, found in Stara Zagora, Bulgaria. |
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Sun 21 Dec, 2014 6:49 am Post subject: |
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The all-riveted construction does make the dating suspect, doesn't it?
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Eric S
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| Posted: Sun 21 Dec, 2014 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Mart Shearer wrote: | | The all-riveted construction does make the dating suspect, doesn't it? |
Thats an important question, is that a proven fact without any doubt or is it an assumption with room for error.
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Sun 21 Dec, 2014 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Eric S wrote: | | Mart Shearer wrote: | | The all-riveted construction does make the dating suspect, doesn't it? |
Thats an important question, is that a proven fact without any doubt or is it an assumption with room for error. |
I would say neither. To disprove it as a fact would only require one example of all riveted mail provably dating to before c.1275 or so, either extant or in inventory descriptions. To say that it is merely an assumption denies the evidence we have for all riveted construction becoming more common in Europe after c. 1300. Of course, all theories should be challenged in search of truth.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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