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Björn Kronisch
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 Posted: Sun 13 Oct, 2013 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Tom King wrote: |
Just don't block with your hands. |
I'm pretty sure most people who were involved in such sparring accidents did not try blocking with their hands. But let's not pointlessly argue about this and return to the topic, shall we?
Any input on the idea of reinforcing a barbute with steel mesh?
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Tom King
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| Posted: Sun 13 Oct, 2013 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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It'll work
in fact, thats what i was going to do with the GDFB barbute, but the helmet was a smidge too small to pad so I returned it.
just remember barbutes have very little in the manner of neck protection, so a gorget or a mail coif is necessary to complete the look and for "safety". For ease I'd say just get a sallet.
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Björn Kronisch
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| Posted: Sun 13 Oct, 2013 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, the GDFB barbute is the one I had in mind. What wire gauge would you use?
I wonder how difficult it will be to drill through the steel.
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Tom King
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| Posted: Sun 13 Oct, 2013 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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14ga Perforated plate and TIG welding
If you want a helmet that can be used for living history, the GDFB "sallet helmet" with the thin eye slit and solid faceplate would be your best bet for safety and reenactment
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William Carew
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| Posted: Mon 14 Oct, 2013 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Tom King wrote: | | The truth of the matter is that the rawling synthetics are a step above fighting with fiberglass core nerf swords.You could do it in 3M safety goggle, or completely unprotected without even getting bruised. The hits will sting, but thats about it. |
This is not really the case if the free play has any intensity to it. Rawlings nylons, especially longswords, can easily break delicate bones such as fingers and leave deep tissue bruising. I speak from first hand experience here. They are not toys or remotely close to nerf swords and need to be taken seriously (including PPE which at a minimum covers the face, head and throat entirely, protective gloves and chest and rib protection) or injuries are very likely to occur.
Bill Carew
Jogo do Pau Brisbane
COLLEGIUM IN ARMIS
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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| Posted: Mon 14 Oct, 2013 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Tom King wrote: | | Just don't block with your hands. |
I'm sorry but I just can't bear that line any longer. Strangely enough when people ask about head protection nobody makes a witty remark "just don't block with your head". Protective gear is there to protect when control and technique failed. Pointing out that if the technique does not fail you don't need protective gear is entirely useless.
If the hands are out of target maybe the need for protection is lessened, but even then with a simple cross a lot of incidental hits occur especially if you start sparring early. So yeah, get gloves or get a complex hilt, even with nylons.
Regards,
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Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Christian Henry Tobler
Location: Oxford, CT Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Posts: 704
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Tom King
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| Posted: Mon 14 Oct, 2013 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| William Carew wrote: | | They are not toys or remotely close to nerf swords |
A nerf sword, while being covered in slightly more forgiving dense foam rubber than a wrawling's nylon, actually has a whole pound and a half on a rawling synthetic two hander. for "just toys" they hit pretty hard and in the hands of a full grown man will leave pretty bad bruises, as well as break finger bones when swung with wreckless abandon.
I don't know how you handle blossfechten with waster hominids, but being "safe" through manner of construction does not preclude the need for appropriate force. If you are hitting hard enough to seriously bruise with a pound and a half nylon waster, then I'd consider it hitting far too hard and detrimental to historic techniques. The point of sparring, at least to me, is to practice technique, not SCA heavy fighting where the last man standing is the victor. If you and yours choose to treat it as such then obviously you need far more protection than i'd recommend, but the way I assume most others handle sparring with feders (obviously with masks and padding) and wasters involves a realistic level of controlled brutality that suits itself to practicing blossfechten as blossfechten.
| Vincent Le Chevalier wrote: | | Protective gear is there to protect when control and technique failed. Pointing out that if the technique does not fail you don't need protective gear is entirely useless |
| Quote: | | If the hands are out of target maybe the need for protection is lessened, but even then with a simple cross a lot of incidental hits occur especially if you start sparring early. |
I and everyone I personally know who uses rawlings, shinai, or even the old standby of ash wasters to free spar does not do so with the unneeded ferocity to instantly break a finger bone. And for safety no group i know attempts or allows targeting of the hands, which if memory serves do not come up much as targets in the historical manuals (mainly because crossguards work, but not for the wrist).
Within context, i'm talking about the bare minimum to fight with, assuming that your opponent doesn't intend to treat the sparring match as a BOTN submission fight. A friend and you could go all day completely unprotected with rawling synthetics, with the unspoken gentlemen's agreement to not endeavor to hurt each other, and not be worse for wear at the end of it. a thicker jacket and a 3 weapons mask would take some of the sting out of the blows, but the blows themselves shouldn't be breaking any bones or leaving 3 week bruises. I save my submission fighting for armored combat (and even then i don't use needlessly exhausting power), but if you gents practice as such then note that I'm not addressing your manner of sparring.
And as much as you may find it detrimental, if the person in question is still at the "early" level of swordsmanship and finds his hands in the way of his opponent's blade most of the time, then perhaps baptism by fire is not the way to go for them. Breaking that bad habit through proper technique before letting them loose on a sparring partner is a better option than giving them thicker gloves.
Obviously officially all our random fight groups use appropriately overkill levels of padding for freesparring, but just because the same protective gear is used for feder and rawling doesn't make the rawling hit like a feder. If they did, then there would be no reason to use them.
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William Carew
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| Posted: Tue 15 Oct, 2013 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| Tom King wrote: | | William Carew wrote: | | They are not toys or remotely close to nerf swords |
A nerf sword, while being covered in slightly more forgiving dense foam rubber than a wrawling's nylon, actually has a whole pound and a half on a rawling synthetic two hander. for "just toys" they hit pretty hard and in the hands of a full grown man will leave pretty bad bruises, as well as break finger bones when swung with wreckless abandon. |
I didn't say nerf swords were toys - you should be careful with them too. I said Rawlings nylon wasters were neither toys nor nerf swords.
| Quote: | | I don't know how you handle blossfechten with waster hominids, |
Indeed, you do not.
| Quote: | | but being "safe" through manner of construction does not preclude the need for appropriate force. |
It's fortunate I never suggested using inappropriate force then, hey?
Safety is a form of triangulation where we combine active and passive measures to achieve our goal of managing the risk of injury. Based on first hand experience as well as numerous reports from HEMA groups all over the world, I am recommending that when employing a simulator like the Rawlings nylon wasters, people (especially beginners!) should use decent PPE such as fencing masks and protective gloves (i.e. passive safety measures), alongside a high degree of control and an appropriate attitude (i.e.active safety measures).
Passive safety measures (e.g. PPE) are there for the times when the active safety measures (e.g. control and attitude) fail. PPE is a failsafe mechanism of sorts, a double layer of defence as it were. Arguing against wearing reasonable PPE on the basis that control and attitude alone is sufficient is like arguing for not installing seatbelts or airbags in cars because good driving control and attitude is all that should be required.
| Quote: | | If you are hitting hard enough to seriously bruise with a pound and a half nylon waster, then I'd consider it hitting far too hard and detrimental to historic techniques. |
I disagree. It takes very little force from a Rawlings proline extreme longsword, when swung in a correct manner with the committment of the body, to break an uncovered finger or result in deep bruising despite the best efforts of the fencers. It takes even less force to drive the point of a Rawlings waster into and through someone's eye socket. Indeed, in the middle of a fencing bout, the unpredictability of free play quite often results in a fencer walking directly into the point of their opponent's sword, leaving the other fencer little or no chance to even arrest or withdraw their sword in order to try and lessen the blow. Unpredictable stuff happens when you introduce the elements of chance and opposition.
Let's be clear here, there is a place for extremely controlled, less than full speed free play, especially for beginners. But there is also a place in training for more intense and spirited free play for more experienced fencers (someone who is not prepared to sport a few bruises will never be ready to compete at Swordfish for example). As skill and competence increases, so too does speed and intensity along with the risk (and acceptance of risk) of injury. This is a martial art to many of us, and we understand and accept that bruises and minor ouchies accompany more intense free play. This is not a sign of recklessness or 'last man standing' machismo, simply a fact of life when the intensity of your training is upped beyond slow speed and cooperative forms of light play.
Now how we manage the risks of more intense free play is by going back to our safety triangulation, and assessing what needs adjusting. We can simply lower the intensity and speed to a very low level, so that we don't have to wear any PPE (I personally would always still advise wearing a mask), or we can increase the amount and quality of the PPE we wear to help offset the increases to speed and intensity.
| Quote: | | The point of sparring, at least to me, is to practice technique, not SCA heavy fighting where the last man standing is the victor |
Technique is indeed what I want to practice in free play too, but I'm not kidding myself here - the longsword (which I practice most) is a powerful weapon that is driven by the full weight and power of the body. The historical techniques are inherently powerful and there is a certain level of speed and intensity below which the techniques don't function the way they do at higher intensities. If you're going to meet a powerful oberhau with a zornhau, or zwerch, or absetzen, you need to perform the technique with sufficient speed and force to defend yourself - doing less and performing it tentatively could fail and simply get you hurt. But performing the technique with sufficient force means that your opponent will cop an impact. You should not try to hurt them, but you have to accept that the net affect of performing a zorn-ort to someone's face, or a zwerchhau to the side of their head, is that you may injure them if they are not wearing appropriate PPE.
I find it a false equivalency to suggest that recommending putting a mask and gloves on to fight with nylon swords (so that you can perform the historical techniques safely with some speed and intensity) is somehow a 'Battle of the Nations' and "last man standing" type mindset or level of brutality. That's a straw man argument to be frank. I consider it better to put a bit more PPE on and not need it, than to go without it and then regret it when your mate slips on some wet grass and decides to faceplant on the point of your nylon sword, or when your attempt to krumphau his blade with sufficient force to parry instead falls entirely on his hand, breaking his unprotected finger. Why take totally unnecessary risks when the PPE is readily available? I just don't understand that mindset at all.
EMMV.
Bill Carew
Jogo do Pau Brisbane
COLLEGIUM IN ARMIS
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Björn Kronisch
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| Posted: Tue 15 Oct, 2013 12:54 am Post subject: |
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Well, before this escalates into a general debate about safety and whatnot, what do you guys think about gloves / gauntlets?
The alternatives that I've been looking at so far all had their issues to my mind. The AF gloves apparently fall apart pretty quickly when the stitching comes loose, the gloves from sparringglove.com are a bit outside of my price range, lacrosse gloves don't protect the fingertips and sides of the fingers, and most steel gauntlets I've found are only 18 gauge mild steel, while I'm not sure how much mobility the cheaper versions offer.
So which gloves or gauntlets do you prefer for your sparring?
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William Carew
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| Posted: Tue 15 Oct, 2013 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| Björn Kronisch wrote: |
So which gloves or gauntlets do you prefer for your sparring? |
This depends on what the situation is. What simulators are used? Who am I facing and at what agreed upon intensity?
In general steel requires more protection than nylon. I like and recommend the Polish Sparring Gloves. Expensive, but worth it IMHO. You can also try steel gauntlets if your group/tournament allows them, but good ones ought to be custom fitted to your hands and will cost more than the Polish gloves. If you are fencing at a lower level of intensity and/or against someone you know and trust, you might get away with lacrosse gloves.
For nylon free play with the Rawlings wasters, lacrosse gloves can work. I use thickly padded Kali gloves, which is a calculated risk on my part (I've devoted a lot of training to avoiding endangering my hands so I rarely get hit on the hands these days). I don't like them but the AF gloves may do, and of course, Polish Sparring Gloves will work well.
You can risk lighter protection (e.g. More thinly padded street hockey or mechanix type gloves) but you will be trading off protection for lightness and ease of use. You have to assess what level of risk you are prepared to take. My advice is to get the best gloves you can afford which have sufficient dexterity for your system of fencing.
Bill Carew
Jogo do Pau Brisbane
COLLEGIUM IN ARMIS
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Tom King
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| Posted: Tue 15 Oct, 2013 1:25 am Post subject: |
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armstreet offers all their gear in 18ga stainless as well for an upcharge, which is stronger than mild steel and much lighter.
http://www.zenwarriorarmory.com/catalog.php?category=41
for both padded leather gloves that would work for combat and purpose built ahistorical fencing gauntlets with ABS or closed cell foam in key areas. I have their "padded glove" which is ok-good, but I'm not sure how long they'll last.
As for the hornets nest, we are talking about rawling synthetics correct? the 1lb 10oz sparring sword with the nylon blade you can compress with thumb and forefinger right? My experience using them just doesn't live up to the danger level being suggested. Anything that can generate a few lb of force can blind a person, but in what manual do you see frequent thrusts, not cuts, to the head in blossfechten? In my experience you can take a full powered blow with a rawling just about anywhere with at worst suffering a light bruise; the instant bruising and broken fingers being asserted are in line with feders, even through padding but especially though substandard protection, which is literally the whole reason "safe" nylon practice swords are used. For safety we use fencing masks and padded jacks, to avoid the 1 in a million freak accident where a guy with a calcium deficiency gets hit in the hand or someone decides to thrust at the face, but at the end of the day a set of safety goggles and pain resistance are minimum necessary protection.
I'm wondering what kind of heated exchange people get into with these things. I mean two fighters start, end up in the bind, one guy gets in a counter cut or two, one guy is "dead", then you start again. Or you lock up in the bind, don't go into ground fighting.grappling, then break apart and reset. 5-10 or so moves/exchanges either way. Obviously an active exchange, but I've fought shinai and t shirts like this (with 3 weapons mask and gloves). I don't see the need, or effectiveness, of trying to break a sub 2lb nylon waster over your opponents head.
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William Carew
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| Posted: Tue 15 Oct, 2013 2:41 am Post subject: |
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There is now a range of views on PPE for use with various simulators (including nylon wasters) available on this thread. My goal in posting was to provide some counterpoints to balance out some of the troubling (IMO) recommendations I saw posted. That has been achieved and I think sensible readers will be able to draw their own conclusions so I think it's as good a time as any to depart the thread.
Bill Carew
Jogo do Pau Brisbane
COLLEGIUM IN ARMIS
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Vincent Le Chevalier
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| Posted: Tue 15 Oct, 2013 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| Tom King wrote: | | in what manual do you see frequent thrusts, not cuts, to the head in blossfechten? |
This one seems to be full of thrusts and stabs to the face, for starters:
http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Pseudo-Peter_von_Danzig (do a search for "face")
I'm sure German longsword fans around could give a more in-depth analysis. Thrusts to the face also appear significantly in Fiore, so it's not even tradition-specific. And of course not longsword-specific either.
Regards,
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Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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William Carew
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| Posted: Tue 15 Oct, 2013 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Vincent Le Chevalier wrote: | | Tom King wrote: | | in what manual do you see frequent thrusts, not cuts, to the head in blossfechten? |
This one seems to be full of thrusts and stabs to the face, for starters:
http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Pseudo-Peter_von_Danzig (do a search for "face")
I'm sure German longsword fans around could give a more in-depth analysis. Thrusts to the face also appear significantly in Fiore, so it's not even tradition-specific. And of course not longsword-specific either.
Regards, |
I would just like to back what Vincent is saying here. Early Liechtenauer is indeed peppered with thrusts/stabs to the head in the blossfechten sections. The very first actual play in the zedel and mainline glosses is the zornhau ort, i.e. a zornhau in response to an oberhau where you stab the attacker in the head. If that doesn't work, a little further on you wind into an upper hanger and stab him in the head. If that doesn't work you wind yet again and try to stab him from the other side.
Some nice examples with lots of face thrusts: http://youtu.be/mjT4JepA-Vc
The pattern continues on from there: the scheitelhau and shielhau can both be delivered as stabs to the head as alternatives to a cut, there is stabbing the head as an alternative response to a low attack in the uberlauffen, absetzen is all about stabbing the head as a defensive form of counterattack while ansetzen is all about using a stab to the head or body as an opening attack and a form of nachreisen. And then there's the all important winden am schwert, winding at the sword, where the plays given are predominately stabs to the head or body (although we are also told each of the 8 winds can also be done as a slice or hewing cut too). In short, no-one reading the Liechtenauer sources would be in any doubt about the prevalence of thrusting to the head.
Bill Carew
Jogo do Pau Brisbane
COLLEGIUM IN ARMIS
Last edited by William Carew on Tue 15 Oct, 2013 1:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Guy Bayes
Location: United States Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Tue 15 Oct, 2013 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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The AF gloves are fine I've had mine for a year at least, used them at least once a week and they are way better then anything steel or leather you will find when it comes to actually protecting your fingers
Another reason people don't trypically use metal gauntlets is you can often hurt people while wrestling if you wear metal hand armor
There are also a lot of longsword strikes (like the Krumphau) that are specifically targeted at hands and fingers. It's REALLY easy to break fingers with them, you don't have to hit hard you just have to get unlucky. Similarly, there a lot of thrusts that are meant to target the face, thd whole Ox guard is meant to open that type of attack. If you want to practice strike to hands and stuff you need gloves. If you want to practice thrusts, you need a helm with back protection. If you don't want to practice them, you don't, but you will miss a lot of the art that way.
There are a whole ton of posts on the hema forums around gear and safety that are good to read. Some of those ghuys have broken every finger on both hands, one at a time over the years
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Ryan Sh
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| Posted: Thu 17 Oct, 2013 10:26 am Post subject: |
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For gloves i really like these.
http://revival.us/kevlar-reinforcedlightsparringgloves.aspx
any more padding is silly and just more bulky. If you are getting hurt through these your practice partner needs to learn control.
As for a helmet a fencing mask with a back of the head padding is good like this one
http://www.woodenswords.com/ProductDetails.as...d.BackOnly
The problem i have with a steel helm is that i feel that it could hinder visibility and mobility while at this stage you should be working on good form. if you want something that looks better that a fencing helm you could get a full cover like the one here
http://www.woodenswords.com/ProductDetails.as...Mask.Back1
it would be better to buy the equipment i listed above and get extras to equip a practice partner and be able to learn good technique, rather than buy more expensive stuff and not do well.
Any way all the best on what ever you decide, swinging swords at your friends is a lot of fun.
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Björn Kronisch
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Tom King
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| Posted: Thu 17 Oct, 2013 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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For sparring at reenactment events, a good broadcloth liripipe hood is a quick way to up your historical look while retaining full face protection.
as seen here on a fellow forumite
 [/img]
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Björn Kronisch
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| Posted: Thu 17 Oct, 2013 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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That looks like a medieval Doctor Doom to me. 
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