| Author |
Message |
|
Chad Hanson
Location: Winona, MN Joined: 01 Aug 2013
Posts: 30
|
 Posted: Wed 25 Sep, 2013 10:15 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Bartek Strojek wrote: | Actually, with all limitations of such formula, I think it's valuable, in the sense that reminds that heated fighting WAS always, brutal, physical, atavistic things.
And it will always look wild, while I even in those short videos you can see quite a few really seasoned guys with pretty solid technique.
Footwork, shield bashes, really nice body lock trips, and general wrestling to trip the opponent and hack him hard without being hit. |
I didn't say there was no technique, just not much...Any fight is chaotic, but that doesn't mean technique should go out the window.
The footwork was fairly good overall. I saw a few good trips in there, but most were simply sticking a foot out to stop someone charging past. The most common wrestling move I saw was grabbing on and spinning your opponent to the ground- which is simply using mass, not good body mechanics.
My big problem is the weapon work. I saw very little technique there- mostly a simple trading of heavy blows. The gentlemen using arming swords seem to focus a bit more on finesse, but still mostly just bash.
All in all, it might be something like real tournaments, though. Based on some of the accounts I've read.
Member of the Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association
|
|
  |
 |
Tom King
|
| Posted: Wed 25 Sep, 2013 10:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Then you'll hate me for this (I'm red helmet guy)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPw3sQegyzM
A solid strike to the head through a 14ga helmet via any edged weapon (even blunt) will ring your bell quite severely
until we develop full immersion 3D simulators we won't be getting any closer to using historic armored combat techniques without accidentally killing each other. I'd love to do something other than blossfechten in armor, and privately me and my friends do (safely) and it isn't that engaging to watch, but the elitism at not partaking in such "crude" recreations is rather unfounded and shortsighted. All i can say is you haven't done it, the whole actually fighting a guy with a sword as he bears down on you with full force thing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Tyler Keich
Location: San Diego, CA Joined: 16 Sep 2010
Posts: 32
|
| Posted: Wed 25 Sep, 2013 11:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Reminds me of a video I came across a while ago, though the one I'm going to post seems more brutal and dangerous. At some points people aren't wearing any protection..:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOYMQAre3qw
|
|
|
|
|
|
Theo Squires
|
| Posted: Thu 26 Sep, 2013 3:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Tyler Keich wrote: | Reminds me of a video I came across a while ago, though the one I'm going to post seems more brutal and dangerous. At some points people aren't wearing any protection..:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOYMQAre3qw |
I quite like that one. The mass charges were interesting. They were fighting over the bodies of the (hopefully alive) fallen, so I hope they had some good rules of conduct to avoid accidentally trampling / killing people. As far as simulating a real battle, this strikes me as very authentic in terms of scale and intensity. Formations were believable etc.. If there's a lack of information about how battles were actually fought, giving it a try with a few hundred testosterone-filled men as in this event would probably give historians a good idea!
|
|
 |
|
|
Chad Hanson
Location: Winona, MN Joined: 01 Aug 2013
Posts: 30
|
| Posted: Thu 26 Sep, 2013 10:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Tom King wrote: | Then you'll hate me for this (I'm red helmet guy)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPw3sQegyzM
A solid strike to the head through a 14ga helmet via any edged weapon (even blunt) will ring your bell quite severely
until we develop full immersion 3D simulators we won't be getting any closer to using historic armored combat techniques without accidentally killing each other. I'd love to do something other than blossfechten in armor, and privately me and my friends do (safely) and it isn't that engaging to watch, but the elitism at not partaking in such "crude" recreations is rather unfounded and shortsighted. All i can say is you haven't done it, the whole actually fighting a guy with a sword as he bears down on you with full force thing. |
No Tom, I actually like your video better- it's not actual harnischfechten, of course, but you guys actually seem to be actively trying to control your opponents weapon and seek for openings. I saw numerous occasions in the video that started the thread in which two fighters would simply trade downward blows to the head repeatedly. THAT's what I don't like. You guys even used a little half-swording, so thanks!
Yes, of course a solid blow will 'ring your bell' through a helm- I think that fact is well known by pretty much all HEMA fighters by this point, isn't it? I'm not sure what your point is with that statement.
Call me elitist if you want, but my issue with the display in the original video is neither unfounded nor short-sighted. I'm not concerned with the participants, but rather with the audience. For decades(or even centuries at this point?), people have been taught that knights fought with crude weapons and no skill, simply bashing away at each other until one submitted to the other. Through study of original manuscripts and weapons, we now know that was not the case at all. A major component of HEMA studies is public education, reclaiming our martial heritage and making it known to the world. When people see something like the video this thread is based on, it actively is fighting against that goal of public education and makes our task that much harder. If this event even had a segment where they took time to explain that the fighting seen there is more of a 'tournament style' and went on to demonstrate some actual harnischfecten techniques, then I would be fine with it. (And who knows? Maybe they do.)
I curious about your comment on 'not getting any closer to using actual historic armored combat techniques'- do you mean in practice, or in earnest? Because I think using harnischfecten in practice is still a lot closer than simply just bashing at each other. Obviously, we'll never be able to try these techniques in earnest (unless you're looking for some serious jail time), but with properly constructed armor and 'safe' training weapons you can approximate it. For instance, if I grapple someone at half-sword and thrust my Albion Liechtenauer into their mailed armpit, they're not going to take a serious injury, but we could both agree they'd probably be bleeding out if I had used my Talhoffer instead.
Member of the Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association
|
|
|
|
|
Harry Marinakis
|
| Posted: Thu 26 Sep, 2013 11:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
Looks choreographed. The guy in the rounded helmet keeps pausing at strategic moments. Makes it look... fake.
|
|
|
|
|
Tom King
|
| Posted: Thu 26 Sep, 2013 11:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Chad Hanson wrote: |
Yes, of course a solid blow will 'ring your bell' through a helm- I think that fact is well known by pretty much all HEMA fighters by this point, isn't it? I'm not sure what your point is with that statement. |
How many HEMA practitioners have actually experienced it though? The physical toll a short, brutal, fight has on you? The feel of operating on pure adrenaline once endurance fails? What it feels like to take a blow to the temple from a longsword swung in as close to anger as can be recreated? The fact that most of the HEMA community focuses on blossfechten at the expense of the other 3/4 of each manual leaves them in the dark on what first hand experience of armored combat feels like and how the harnischfecten would truly work in full kit.
| Quote: | | I'm not concerned with the participants, but rather with the audience. For decades(or even centuries at this point?), people have been taught that knights fought with crude weapons and no skill, simply bashing away at each other until one submitted to the other. Through study of original manuscripts and weapons, we now know that was not the case at all. A major component of HEMA studies is public education, reclaiming our martial heritage and making it known to the world. When people see something like the video this thread is based on, it actively is fighting against that goal of public education and makes our task that much harder. If this event even had a segment where they took time to explain that the fighting seen there is more of a 'tournament style' and went on to demonstrate some actual harnischfecten techniques, then I would be fine with it. (And who knows? Maybe they do.) |
But the key here is the audience! Exhibition matches are about entertainment first and foremost, utilizing period techniques as much as possible (which look much better than conanesque bashing). In Florida and Poland I doubt half of that audience could be considered somber, so some loud bashing gets the blood pumping. The reality is that harnischfecten would be pretty brutal, especially on the battlefield, with most people winning or losing in seconds thanks to the brutal efficiency of the combat system. But against lighter infantry you would not be halfswording in the bind but be using blossfechten techniques; a fully armored man at arms would be immune to almost all strikes, even from pole weapons, so the iron man feeling of wearing armor is not unfounded. You can't appreciate how much of a boon armor would have been on a medieval battlefield until you've taken a poleaxe to the face in earnest.
The Poles obviously are fighting a bit crudely, but predominantly they are wearing and using arms and armor from the mid to late 14th century, when the spatulate tip longsword still reigned (albeit pointier than it's predecessors in profile), so a fair amount of bashing would not be unheard of and a few good strikes to the head and neck paired with a good joint lock and throw would put a man down regardless of armor. The same strike to a lighter armored opponent would be a death sentence.
Also, it looks like they are following BOTN field combat rules, so the point is to knock each other down. If they were recreating a historic medieval tourney things would look quite different.
| Quote: | | I curious about your comment on 'not getting any closer to using actual historic armored combat techniques'- do you mean in practice, or in earnest? Because I think using harnischfecten in practice is still a lot closer than simply just bashing at each other. Obviously, we'll never be able to try these techniques in earnest (unless you're looking for some serious jail time), but with properly constructed armor and 'safe' training weapons you can approximate it. For instance, if I grapple someone at half-sword and thrust my Albion Liechtenauer into their mailed armpit, they're not going to take a serious injury, but we could both agree they'd probably be bleeding out if I had used my Talhoffer instead. |
I fight 3/4 speed with very trusted long time friends in armor with rebated swords. Few, if any, full powered strikes (but still forceful, or whats the point) so as to better work on technique in the bind. We stop before physical contact, just freeze with a sword point an inch away from an armpit or throat. From the outside in, it would look incredibly slow paced and boring, which is why we fight with lots of flashy cuts instead when the point is to keep a few dozen drunks entertained.
The problem is using techniques "in practice" is that that blow to the armpit can cause significant damage, even if it doesn't penetrate the mail. It just is not safe, especially when fighting people who... may not have the same understanding as you. The average reenactment group would not be able to safely or widely illustrate true harnischfecten at full speed unchoreographed, which is why so many groups focus on throws in the bind over thrusts when doing light harnischfecten, since an over zealous toss over the knee doesn't require immediate emergency room attention.
|
|
|
|
|
Tom King
|
| Posted: Thu 26 Sep, 2013 11:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Harry Marinakis wrote: |
Looks choreographed. The guy in the rounded helmet keeps pausing at strategic moments. Makes it look... fake. |
well thats.... like... your opinion man
It's most definitely not fake; I wish i could remember a 100 move choreographed combo and fight it realistically. you've seen some much better fakes than I have if you think that was choreographed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BxAEbf_eBM&am...page#t=255
This^ is "good" choreographed fighting, so either I'm a world class choreographed fighter and need to send my resume to disney for the next star wars movie, or it was real. you be the judge
As for him pausing, it's called attempting to not pass out from exhaustion. He had some trouble getting up afterwards, as you can see. Actual armored combat takes a lot out of you and we haven't had 6 hours a day to practice running around in armor since age 14.
|
|
|
|
|
Benjamin H. Abbott
|
| Posted: Thu 26 Sep, 2013 8:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Tom King wrote: | | The reality is that harnischfecten would be pretty brutal, especially on the battlefield, with most people winning or losing in seconds thanks to the brutal efficiency of the combat system. |
Some sources suggest armored combat took time. For example, see this fifteenth-century battlefield duel account from a German knight. It's notable that both he and his "Moorish" opponent traded ineffectual sword strokes at their first encounter on foot and ending up in an extended grappling match.
| Quote: | | But against lighter infantry you would not be halfswording in the bind but be using blossfechten techniques; a fully armored man at arms would be immune to almost all strikes, even from pole weapons, so the iron man feeling of wearing armor is not unfounded. |
This matches descriptions of protective ability of armor from sixteenth-century authors such as Fourquevaux and de la Noue, who thought even the couched lance unlikely to wound through a good harness.
| Quote: | | You can't appreciate how much of a boon armor would have been on a medieval battlefield until you've taken a poleaxe to the face in earnest. |
Yet other sources indicated that pollaxes and similar weapons could kill an armored man with a single blow to the head. Aleksei and I discussed this at some length a while back.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Steven Janus
Location: Florida, USA Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 187
|
| Posted: Thu 26 Sep, 2013 9:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Tom King wrote: | | Harry Marinakis wrote: |
Looks choreographed. The guy in the rounded helmet keeps pausing at strategic moments. Makes it look... fake. |
well thats.... like... your opinion man
It's most definitely not fake; I wish i could remember a 100 move choreographed combo and fight it realistically. you've seen some much better fakes than I have if you think that was choreographed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BxAEbf_eBM&am...page#t=255
This^ is "good" choreographed fighting, so either I'm a world class choreographed fighter and need to send my resume to disney for the next star wars movie, or it was real. you be the judge
As for him pausing, it's called attempting to not pass out from exhaustion. He had some trouble getting up afterwards, as you can see. Actual armored combat takes a lot out of you and we haven't had 6 hours a day to practice running around in armor since age 14. |
No that is not choreographed. I was there that fair seasons and know both fighters personally. Sometimes a few decisions are made in fight about who is going to take the fall, but that is about as close to choreographed as it gets. It is all real. I'm surprised you beat Justin, he's a good fighter. Well then again so are you Tom.
Newbie Sword collector
|
|
 |
|
|
Chad Hanson
Location: Winona, MN Joined: 01 Aug 2013
Posts: 30
|
| Posted: Thu 26 Sep, 2013 10:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | How many HEMA practitioners have actually experienced it though? The physical toll a short, brutal, fight has on you? The feel of operating on pure adrenaline once endurance fails? What it feels like to take a blow to the temple from a longsword swung in as close to anger as can be recreated? The fact that most of the HEMA community focuses on blossfechten at the expense of the other 3/4 of each manual leaves them in the dark on what first hand experience of armored combat feels like and how the harnischfecten would truly work in full kit. |
I don't have an exact number, but many do. The reason that every starts with blossfechten is simple- equipment is expensive, and armor is the most expensive equipment you can get. I just spent $1000 on equipment, and I don't even have my armor yet.(and I have at least $1500 in equipment before that)
In many clubs, freeplay can get rather intense though, and you can get some pretty good 'bell-ringers' in a fencing mask, too. Although I do understand it's not the same thing- you just can't go at it as hard without armor.
| Quote: | The Poles obviously are fighting a bit crudely, but predominantly they are wearing and using arms and armor from the mid to late 14th century, when the spatulate tip longsword still reigned (albeit pointier than it's predecessors in profile), so a fair amount of bashing would not be unheard of and a few good strikes to the head and neck paired with a good joint lock and throw would put a man down regardless of armor. The same strike to a lighter armored opponent would be a death sentence.
Also, it looks like they are following BOTN field combat rules, so the point is to knock each other down. If they were recreating a historic medieval tourney things would look quite different. |
That's not accurate- the type XV and especially the XVa were already quite dominant by the mid-late 14th century. It's also the days of Liechtenauer himself, so harnischfecten as we know it today would have been known, even if not necessarily common.
You are right about the tourneys, though- although I'm sure it would depend on the tourney, since the rules seemed to vary quite a lot.
| Quote: | I fight 3/4 speed with very trusted long time friends in armor with rebated swords. Few, if any, full powered strikes (but still forceful, or whats the point) so as to better work on technique in the bind. We stop before physical contact, just freeze with a sword point an inch away from an armpit or throat. From the outside in, it would look incredibly slow paced and boring, which is why we fight with lots of flashy cuts instead when the point is to keep a few dozen drunks entertained.
The problem is using techniques "in practice" is that that blow to the armpit can cause significant damage, even if it doesn't penetrate the mail. It just is not safe, especially when fighting people who... may not have the same understanding as you. The average reenactment group would not be able to safely or widely illustrate true harnischfecten at full speed unchoreographed, which is why so many groups focus on throws in the bind over thrusts when doing light harnischfecten, since an over zealous toss over the knee doesn't require immediate emergency room attention. |
Sounds like a good methodology to me. I think that if I can take a decent thrust from a Liechtenauer in just a padded jacket, that I'm probably not going to be injured by that thrust when you add mail, however. Along with other defenses in the right places, I think some moderate thrusting could still be allowed. Not full-force, mind you, but I think there's a big gap between what could be lethal with a sharp and what could cause dangerous injury with a good blunt.
Like I said before, I'd be fine with these public displays if they also were to include a short educational segment, too. It's the thought that people are going to go away with the idea that knights just wildly bashed at each other like schoolboys with sticks that bothers me. (I'm not referring to your video with that comment, just to be clear.)
And anyways, if they don't want to listen- I'm the guy with the sword, so you'll sit and listen for a bit when I say. 
Member of the Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association
|
|
|
|
|
|
Steven Janus
Location: Florida, USA Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 187
|
| Posted: Thu 26 Sep, 2013 10:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
We do not use flex safe swords in our group for live steel. We do in cut and thrust but no one really fights in cut and thrust in our group. Most of the blunts we use are stage with 3 mm edges with one to two inches of flex. You can thrust safely with a flexible sword however. Stage swords, uhhh well you want to be a bit more careful as they tend to be less flexible like BKS, Fabri Armorum, Hanwei practicals, etc. It depends on what sword you are using.
Newbie Sword collector
|
|
|
|
|
|
Christopher B Lellis
Location: Houston, Texas Joined: 01 Dec 2012
Posts: 268
|
| Posted: Fri 27 Sep, 2013 1:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
That's the way I train, full speed.
I'd fit right in with those guys. Is it risky? Yep, you can get hurt or at least a good whack that will live a mark. That's a risk I willingly take all the time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Chad Hanson
Location: Winona, MN Joined: 01 Aug 2013
Posts: 30
|
| Posted: Fri 27 Sep, 2013 6:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Steven Janus wrote: | | We do not use flex safe swords in our group for live steel. We do in cut and thrust but no one really fights in cut and thrust in our group. Most of the blunts we use are stage with 3 mm edges with one to two inches of flex. You can thrust safely with a flexible sword however. Stage swords, uhhh well you want to be a bit more careful as they tend to be less flexible like BKS, Fabri Armorum, Hanwei practicals, etc. It depends on what sword you are using. |
Yeah, that will definitely make a difference. The Liechtenauer is pretty stiff as well, similar to many sharps, but it sounds like your swords are stiffer, so caution is definitely warranted.
Member of the Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association
|
|
|
|
|
|
Christopher B Lellis
Location: Houston, Texas Joined: 01 Dec 2012
Posts: 268
|
| Posted: Fri 27 Sep, 2013 1:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Chad Hanson wrote: | | Steven Janus wrote: | | We do not use flex safe swords in our group for live steel. We do in cut and thrust but no one really fights in cut and thrust in our group. Most of the blunts we use are stage with 3 mm edges with one to two inches of flex. You can thrust safely with a flexible sword however. Stage swords, uhhh well you want to be a bit more careful as they tend to be less flexible like BKS, Fabri Armorum, Hanwei practicals, etc. It depends on what sword you are using. |
Yeah, that will definitely make a difference. The Liechtenauer is pretty stiff as well, similar to many sharps, but it sounds like your swords are stiffer, so caution is definitely warranted. |
I have a Liechtenauer, one should never thrust into another person with it, I can pierce a heavy bag with it easily, it will stab somebody deep no problem.
|
|
|
|
|
Harry Marinakis
|
| Posted: Fri 27 Sep, 2013 2:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Tom King wrote: | | It's most definitely not fake. |
Okay, I believe you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Chad Hanson
Location: Winona, MN Joined: 01 Aug 2013
Posts: 30
|
| Posted: Fri 27 Sep, 2013 11:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Christopher B Lellis wrote: | | I have a Liechtenauer, one should never thrust into another person with it, I can pierce a heavy bag with it easily, it will stab somebody deep no problem. |
My experience differs from yours at least to some degree then, Christopher. We have already tested both Liechtenauers and A&A Fechterspiels against SPES Axel Petterson jackets and found that a thrust firm enough to be felt (and even rock you back a bit) can indeed safely be performed against these jackets. Of course, you can also split a 1x4 with a thrust from a Liechtenauer as well, so, caution is required. I'm not recommending this for anyone else (for legal reasons) but it works for us. As always, control is the best safety tool available to all practitioners. You can also tip them with rubber blunts if you want an extra level of safety.
Also, earlier in this thread I was referring to thrusting against mail, so unless you can thrust you Liechtenauer through mail your comment isn't especially relevant.
Member of the Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association
|
|
|
|
|
|
Henrik Granlid
|
| Posted: Sat 28 Sep, 2013 2:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
Looking at the duels, there are plenty of good techniques, feints, parries, wraparounds and false-edge blows, theseguys aren't mindlessly flailing.
However, one must consider the aim and rules, somebody described this as cagefighting, and it is quite similar, the HMB rules are pretty much last man standing, as such, the emphasis is not on a floruish of excelent blows and one tap gaining a point and resetting, this is what happens when hema artists don't stop until one is on the ground.
There's plenty of refined technique in their combat.
There's huge ammounts of physical strain.
There are hundreds, if not thousands of hours of training.
If they'd reset after each hit, it would look more like hema or sca, but they don't. The techniques are the same, it's just the rules that are different.
EDIT: Also, isn't this iron-man rhinoing exactly what Jorg von Ehingen describes in the duel with the Moorish champion? Multiple ineffectual blows because of the armour?
|
|
|
|
|
Benjamin H. Abbott
|
| Posted: Sat 28 Sep, 2013 6:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Henrik Granlid wrote: | | The techniques are the same, it's just the rules that are different. |
The lack of thrusting and dangerous or painful grappling moves cuts out at least half of historical armored-combat techniques. The absence of sharp edges may also make blows against armor less likely to stick.
| Quote: | | EDIT: Also, isn't this iron-man rhinoing exactly what Jorg von Ehingen describes in the duel with the Moorish champion? Multiple ineffectual blows because of the armour? |
Well, yes and no. Von Ehingen only described striking one blow against his foe before they came to grips. The Moorish champion might have struck a couple but no more than that. After much grappling, von Ehingen ended the fight with two cuts to his opponent's [partially protected?] face and a thrust through the throat.
Historical techniques against armor varied, and cuts against armor indeed appear in certain accounts and even manuals. Period martial artists disagreed about the relative merits of the blow, but as far as I know every source on combat in plate armor considers thrusting essential. Fighting in harness with only blows and no submission grips is its own peculiar animal. As many of have noted, it's closest to the medieval and Renaissance tournament. It's not that there's no technique or skill involved, but that the rules demand different techniques. I see plenty of resemblances to historical battles in The Battle of Nations and such - especially in the descending polearms - but it's also profoundly different.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Christopher B Lellis
Location: Houston, Texas Joined: 01 Dec 2012
Posts: 268
|
| Posted: Mon 30 Sep, 2013 2:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Henrik Granlid wrote: | Looking at the duels, there are plenty of good techniques, feints, parries, wraparounds and false-edge blows, theseguys aren't mindlessly flailing.
However, one must consider the aim and rules, somebody described this as cagefighting, and it is quite similar, the HMB rules are pretty much last man standing, as such, the emphasis is not on a floruish of excelent blows and one tap gaining a point and resetting, this is what happens when hema artists don't stop until one is on the ground.
There's plenty of refined technique in their combat.
There's huge ammounts of physical strain.
There are hundreds, if not thousands of hours of training.
If they'd reset after each hit, it would look more like hema or sca, but they don't. The techniques are the same, it's just the rules that are different.
EDIT: Also, isn't this iron-man rhinoing exactly what Jorg von Ehingen describes in the duel with the Moorish champion? Multiple ineffectual blows because of the armour? |
In my experience, most people who criticize a supposed lack of "techniques" never can pull off their own techniques in an actual fight and get overwhelmed in a couple of seconds and then they start making excuses.
It's always the same.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
All contents © Copyright 2003-2024 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum
|
This is a standard topic