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Greg Ballantyne
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 Posted: Sun 11 Aug, 2013 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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Not to mention the next logical variation of what equals best - some reproduction sword makers excel in reproducing certain periods and styles of swords. If there was truly a consensus of "best" we would not see the degree of variation represented in history. But I believe I've quite certainly moved beyond the thoughts of the OP with this line of thought......
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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| Posted: Wed 14 Aug, 2013 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Rune Vildhoj wrote: | Upon initially reading this thread, I thought that for once I was quite in disagreement with Nathan - thinking that there was a such thing as a 'best' sword from an objective point of view. Completely putting aside any discussions of whether the person asking for advice on the sword just wanted to accessorize a costume (and thus would be better matched with a cheaper sword), wanted something to display or cared about functionality, I thought that the sword considered as separate object would still hold an absolute rating - irregardless of whether it would actually best match the needs of the one asking for advice on what to choose. But in doing so, one would already have made a verdict as to what a "sword" is - which in my case is linked to not thinking of those non-performing sword-like-objects featuring a various vendors of tourist traps as swords at all. It may sound quite philosophical, but actually this question of what constitutes the best sword profoundly connects with another one I was once asked: "Is that a real sword you have there?" - Essentially, what makes an object qualify as a sword to someone? Does it need to be sharp? Need it be a fairly close replica of weapons historically known to us, or will a modern, likewise functional, design be equally thought of as a sword? Would a blade of similar dynamics as a historical one, but of a modern steel able to take much more abuse (because of the advances in metallurgy and ability to do a controlled heat treatment) make for an object which is ultimately more or less of a sword than the original one? And so on...
Thus I have completely changed my opinion and wants to thank for the wake-up call - hence this post.
Yep, it really is about context! Not just as far as the best match between and sword goes, but in just defining sword. |
Thank you, Rune, for having an open mind and taking a moment to think about the subject. I appreciate that.
I think the additional points you mention are very important and I also think you articulated some of my own thoughts better than I did.
Cheers
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Lance Morris
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| Posted: Sat 17 Aug, 2013 8:51 am Post subject: Tinker |
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Hello,
Ive found some of the best cutters are Angus trim. Tough to.
Ever thought about Tinkers swords?
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Robert B. Marks
Location: Kingston, Ont. Joined: 04 Feb 2004
Posts: 82
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| Posted: Wed 21 Aug, 2013 7:57 am Post subject: Re: Who makes the best replicas/recreation swords? |
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| Charles B McFadden wrote: | I want the best swords I can get, I am leaning toward medieval Europe fashion, I like cruciform swords. I have done some research and these seem to be the popular sword makers.
Albion
Arms and Armor
Ollin
Valiant Armory
Del Tin
Windless
Lutel
I'm sure there are others, I don't know them all. |
Right, this information may be slightly dated, but...
You've got three basic tiers of production sword makers. These are my own observations of them, but there are exceptions to every rule, so please don't take this as hard-and-fast.
The top tier used to be called the "three A's" - Albion, Arms & Armor, and Angus Trim. Angus Trim seems to have dropped off a bit, though - but it was Angus who probably deserves a lot of the credit for making the high-performance sword a reality. These three make consistently very high-quality, but also very expensive, swords. They are also all made in-house. One of the distinguishing features that I've noticed is that with this level, you know who made or designed the sword (so your sword could be called an Angus Trim, or a Peter Johnsson, etc.).
The middle tier contains companies like Lutel, Darksword Armory (my employer), Windlass, Valiant Armory, etc. These are companies that are making swords that usually of high quality, but can be a bit more hit-and-miss. They tend to come in at a price range between $250-$450. A lot of times, their swords are manufactured by a foundry in China, the Philippines, etc. There are exceptions, though - Darksword, for example, forges all of their blades in-house.
The lower tier contains companies like Hanwei, Deepeka, etc. Their swords can be very hit-and-miss, and some are of very low quality. The price range tends to be $250 and below.
That said, there is certainly movement between the tiers. For example, Hanwei teamed up with Michael "Tinker" Pearce for a sword line that easily belonged in the middle tier a couple of years back, and the lower and middle tiers have raised their game considerably over the last few years.
Anyway, those are my observations, for what they are worth...
Robert Marks
Darksword Armory, Inc.
www.darksword-armory.com
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Lee O'Hagan
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| Posted: Wed 21 Aug, 2013 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry Robert,
have to respectfully disagree with a couple of your points,
Hanwei from what I've seen in person are generally a middle tier option, or at least some of the items are, windlass, same again some not bad, some horrible, i'd take Del Tin every time over Windlass personally,
comparing Hanwei to Depeeka ? pretty far apart from the Depeeka I've seen,
Darksword from what I've read and heard are a lower tier, looking through their options a good few patterns seem markedly
borrowed,
but I will say congrats on the new position, and I hope with your input they will move up to the middle tier, so to speak,
As to the OT,
if the OP can get to a show or two, or somewhere like a stockist like KOA it'd make a choice a lot easier,
the classifieds here are also excellent, 
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Robert B. Marks
Location: Kingston, Ont. Joined: 04 Feb 2004
Posts: 82
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| Posted: Thu 22 Aug, 2013 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Lee O'Hagan wrote: | Sorry Robert,
have to respectfully disagree with a couple of your points,
Hanwei from what I've seen in person are generally a middle tier option, or at least some of the items are, windlass, same again some not bad, some horrible, i'd take Del Tin every time over Windlass personally,
comparing Hanwei to Depeeka ? pretty far apart from the Depeeka I've seen,
Darksword from what I've read and heard are a lower tier, looking through their options a good few patterns seem markedly
borrowed,
but I will say congrats on the new position, and I hope with your input they will move up to the middle tier, so to speak,
As to the OT,
if the OP can get to a show or two, or somewhere like a stockist like KOA it'd make a choice a lot easier,
the classifieds here are also excellent, |
Hi Lee!
First, thank you for the congrats - it is rather exciting to be working in the sword industry, and I am very much enjoying it.
I would agree with you that Hanwei does occupy that area between the lower and middle tiers.. Perhaps the best thing they have done for that was partnering with Michael "Tinker" Pearce for some sword designs. However, that said, our WMA group has some Hanwei swords, and they are very hit-or-miss. Now, this may not be representative of their cutters (in fact, they probably aren't), but I suppose I should have stressed that the separation between tiers not hard-and-fast. From what I've seen of the Hanweis vs the Windlasses, I'd put the Hanweis lower on the tier than the Windlasses.
As far as Darksword goes, they've come a long way. I would put them firmly in the middle tier. Just after I was offered this job, my WMA group borrowed 4 Darksword blades for a show around Ottawa. They impressed me enough that I tried rather unsuccessfully to get to keep one (a fish-tailed Gothic longsword with a hollow grind) as a signing bonus. I should point out that my previous two sword purchases were custom jobs by Al Massey, and I have two Angus Trims leaning against a wall within five feet of me right now. So, Darksword managed to impress me (and I'm not just saying that because I now work for them).
It has helped a lot that Eyal - my boss, and the fellow who runs Darksword - has spent a lot of time visiting museums in Europe and handling swords and armour. So, DSA is improving itself by getting as much first-hand experience with the original antiques as possible. As a trained historian, I approve. :-)
(Oh yes - I have to add, the man has a antiques collection that is drool-worthy - just a few weeks ago, I got to handle two or three 500 year-old rapiers/smallswords from his collection. They were real beauties. I am very envious.)
Robert Marks
Darksword Armory, Inc.
www.darksword-armory.com
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Ian Hutchison
Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Thu 22 Aug, 2013 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | Asking for the "best" of anything without context is a question I can't answer and I'd challenge others to ask additional questions before they present an answer.
I would need to ask this:
Best at what?
Swords are aimed at dozens and dozens of different types of customers and are intended for just as many purposes. One maker might be the perfect match for a customer demographic or intended purpose but may be completely off-target for another.
Windlass, for example, would be a perfect match to a customer looking to create a medieval-inspired costume on a budget whereas Albion would largely be a terrible match for that customer. In this case, Windlass would be on the "Best" list and Albion would not make the list.
Conversely, Albion would be a perfect match for a customer doing historically-accurate living history, whereas Windlass would largely be a terrible match for that same customer. In this case, Albion would be on the "Best" list and Windlass would not make the list.
It's all about context. |
Well said Nathan. I would also add that, as far as historical accuracy is concerned, Albion is not necessarily representative of what would have been available, or predominant, at any given time. Albion's pieces are obviously top quality, but of course not every historical piece would have been at that level of quality, certainly not in terms of material, and frequently not in terms of manufacture. We have numerous examples of poorly balanced, poorly finished, and poorly made swords.
'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Robert B. Marks
Location: Kingston, Ont. Joined: 04 Feb 2004
Posts: 82
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| Posted: Fri 23 Aug, 2013 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| Ian Hutchison wrote: | | Nathan Robinson wrote: | Asking for the "best" of anything without context is a question I can't answer and I'd challenge others to ask additional questions before they present an answer.
I would need to ask this:
Best at what?
Swords are aimed at dozens and dozens of different types of customers and are intended for just as many purposes. One maker might be the perfect match for a customer demographic or intended purpose but may be completely off-target for another.
Windlass, for example, would be a perfect match to a customer looking to create a medieval-inspired costume on a budget whereas Albion would largely be a terrible match for that customer. In this case, Windlass would be on the "Best" list and Albion would not make the list.
Conversely, Albion would be a perfect match for a customer doing historically-accurate living history, whereas Windlass would largely be a terrible match for that same customer. In this case, Albion would be on the "Best" list and Windlass would not make the list.
It's all about context. |
Well said Nathan. I would also add that, as far as historical accuracy is concerned, Albion is not necessarily representative of what would have been available, or predominant, at any given time. Albion's pieces are obviously top quality, but of course not every historical piece would have been at that level of quality, certainly not in terms of material, and frequently not in terms of manufacture. We have numerous examples of poorly balanced, poorly finished, and poorly made swords. |
Just as an interesting bit of trivia that might muddy the waters a bit, balance is often used to figure out if a sword is real or a forgery.
I used to know a curator at the Royal Ontario Museum (the man who put a 650-year old sword in my hands and started my love of the things), and one of the things he told me was that the Victorians loved swords. They had an active sword industry that pumped out no shortage of forgeries. Unfortunately, while the Victorians were enthusiastic Medievalists, they were also rather bad at it. So, they were putting out swords that handled like bricks on sticks (I know first-hand - he put one in my hands).
Therefore, the first test of authenticity is handling - if it handles like a sword, it might be authentic. If it handles like a brick on a stick, it is probably a 19th century forgery.
(Possibly not entirely relevant, but interesting trivia all the same...)
Robert Marks
Darksword Armory, Inc.
www.darksword-armory.com
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T. Arndt
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| Posted: Fri 23 Aug, 2013 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| Christopher B Lellis wrote: | | I own swords from several of them and all of them feel like sharpened steel bars compared to my Albions, but I may be spoiled by my selection of Albion swords because the ones I own are known to be quite fast and agile even for Albions. |
This is extremelly unfair to Arms & Armor. I have their Dürer and it handles every bit as nicely as the Albion Earl or Talhoffer.
That being said, A&A has been making some of their models for longer than Albion has been making their Next Gen line. So comparing a very old A&A to a current Albion is not fair. For example, I have see an old A&A German Bastard Sword and a brand new one, and I thought the new one handled better, was finished better and had a different tip.
| Roger Hooper wrote: | I assume that you are looking for the best regardless of price. Albion certainly makes the best Medieval swords. They put in the research in the quest for making swords as close as possible to the Medieval originals. They are also more concerned that anyone else in creating superior blade geometry.
Arms and Armor is a fairly close second. Their product, while still expensive, is significantly cheaper than Albion's. Also, if you run across an original that no makes a production version of, or have some dream design that isn't off the wall, they are the best and most accessible entity to do a custom sword for you. |
I'd agree with this, but it is worth pointing out A&A will do custom changes and custom pieces while Albion will not.
Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association (WHFA) - La Crosse
A HEMA Alliance Affiliate
“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?” -Juvenal
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Ian Hutchison
Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Fri 23 Aug, 2013 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| Robert B. Marks wrote: | Just as an interesting bit of trivia that might muddy the waters a bit, balance is often used to figure out if a sword is real or a forgery.
I used to know a curator at the Royal Ontario Museum (the man who put a 650-year old sword in my hands and started my love of the things), and one of the things he told me was that the Victorians loved swords. They had an active sword industry that pumped out no shortage of forgeries. Unfortunately, while the Victorians were enthusiastic Medievalists, they were also rather bad at it. So, they were putting out swords that handled like bricks on sticks (I know first-hand - he put one in my hands).
Therefore, the first test of authenticity is handling - if it handles like a sword, it might be authentic. If it handles like a brick on a stick, it is probably a 19th century forgery.
(Possibly not entirely relevant, but interesting trivia all the same...) |
Yes, they have the same issue as low quality reproductions today, too heavy, poor weight distribution. It would be wrong to assume all historical swords should handle well though. There are many examples that are point/blade heavy.
'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Fri 23 Aug, 2013 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| Robert B. Marks wrote: |
Just as an interesting bit of trivia that might muddy the waters a bit, balance is often used to figure out if a sword is real or a forgery.
I used to know a curator at the Royal Ontario Museum (the man who put a 650-year old sword in my hands and started my love of the things), and one of the things he told me was that the Victorians loved swords. They had an active sword industry that pumped out no shortage of forgeries. Unfortunately, while the Victorians were enthusiastic Medievalists, they were also rather bad at it. So, they were putting out swords that handled like bricks on sticks (I know first-hand - he put one in my hands).
Therefore, the first test of authenticity is handling - if it handles like a sword, it might be authentic. If it handles like a brick on a stick, it is probably a 19th century forgery.
(Possibly not entirely relevant, but interesting trivia all the same...) |
Robert,
I think that's an over simplification of a subject that is rather complex in its own right. I've seen many Victorian copies of both weapons and armor. They range from very bad to really quite good. Many of them are indeed a "brick on a stick", but some are good enough that you'd never know it from their handling alone, which can be quite good. I've seen armor that was so good you'd really have to be informed on the specifics of Victorian copies not to be fooled. Regarding weapons, the two biggest tell tale signs always seem to be decoration and heat treatment. The ornamentation is always more simplified and less detailed than the medieval originals they were trying to imitate, and heat treatment is often totally lacking in many examples. There's also the light acid wash the Victorians usually insisted in putting on everything that's lends another indicator. Usually they seem to have been more concerned with producing something that would look good on a wall when viewed from ten feet away, rather than a usable recreation. There are some very good copies out there though.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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