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Chad Hanson
Location: Winona, MN Joined: 01 Aug 2013
Posts: 30
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 Posted: Thu 08 Aug, 2013 12:08 am Post subject: |
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I'm following this thread with a lot of interest, as I'm also looking to assemble a mid-14th century kit. In fact, I'm even shooting for the same time (1350) and region (Germany).
I've got a couple of questions, I haven't seen answered yet, though.
1.) Should I use some type of padded chausses under my mail chausses? Or should I use what I've seen referred to as 'gamboised cuisses' (sort of a 3/4 padded chausses, or 'capri chausses', if you will  )?
2.) Was there any sort of extra hip defense in use in 1350, or was this covered simply by the gambeson/aketon and mail?
3.) Were there any regional style differences regarding gambeson/aketon in Germany? (I'm currently planning on using the pourpoint & gambeson detailed in this book http://www.lulu.com/shop/tasha-kelly/the-pour...B36B47540, and I'm hoping that they will be an appropriate fit.)
I'm sure I'll have plenty of other questions, but I think that's good for now.
Thanks for an interesting thread and lots of good info!
Member of the Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association
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Ian S LaSpina
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| Posted: Thu 08 Aug, 2013 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| Chad Hanson wrote: | I'm following this thread with a lot of interest, as I'm also looking to assemble a mid-14th century kit. In fact, I'm even shooting for the same time (1350) and region (Germany).
I've got a couple of questions, I haven't seen answered yet, though.
1.) Should I use some type of padded chausses under my mail chausses? Or should I use what I've seen referred to as 'gamboised cuisses' (sort of a 3/4 padded chausses, or 'capri chausses', if you will )?
2.) Was there any sort of extra hip defense in use in 1350, or was this covered simply by the gambeson/aketon and mail?
3.) Were there any regional style differences regarding gambeson/aketon in Germany? (I'm currently planning on using the pourpoint & gambeson detailed in this book http://www.lulu.com/shop/tasha-kelly/the-pour...B36B47540, and I'm hoping that they will be an appropriate fit.)
I'm sure I'll have plenty of other questions, but I think that's good for now.
Thanks for an interesting thread and lots of good info! |
Here's a write up I did about Tasha Kelly's pattern. I highly recommend her pattern, it's very easy to follow:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=28169
Any particular reason you're going for maille chausses for this kit? 1350's Germany allows the use of plate or splinted cuisses, and schynbalds or cased greaves on the lower legs. You wouldn't require any maille leg defense. If you do elect to go for maille chausses, then gamboised cuisses or padded chausses are a good idea. For a rigid leg defense, simple wool chausses with no padding is all you need.
Tasha's pattern really lends itself to a plate harness, since it's very good at suspending one properly, especially if the waist is made tight enough to support a leg harness from the hips.
Hips could benefit from some coverage by the coat of plates depending on it's shaping, but maille and padding is very appropriate.
My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest
"Monsters are dangerous, and just now Kings are dying like flies..."
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Thu 08 Aug, 2013 6:16 am Post subject: |
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| Stephen Burger wrote: | To close that collar could I use brass rings? I was thinking of doing some trim that way as well. I've seen some done in that way and I suspect it's historical at some point but is it at my time?
Steve |
Brass (latten) rings are used at the edges of body, sleeves, and neck, but the rows at the neck are usually fewer. We might see 5-7 rows on the sleeves and bottom, but only one or two at the neck or sometimes none at all. Here's a German mail shirt at the Met attributed to the 15th century with latten trim on sleeves and lower edge, but none at the neck.
http://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/aa/original/DT215004.jpg
The 14th century British Museum mail standard with the 6:1 collar only has a single row of small latten rings at the neck. (Butted latten decorations, similar to ermine tails, appear as well.)
http://www.britishmuseum.org/collectionimages..._001_l.jpg
I wouldn't use brass to narrow the collar, but only to place a single or double row at the edge after it's been made to fit.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Stephen Burger
Location: United States Joined: 05 Jul 2013
Posts: 29
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| Posted: Thu 08 Aug, 2013 7:23 am Post subject: |
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I think you're asking Chad this question but I too am planning to use maile and plate for my legs. My reasoning for using mail with plate supplements is that I have some maile left over from the hauberk I was going to make before I went ahead and purchased my Hauberk. That project will become a tailoring project and I have this extra material with no purpose. I also like how maile feels and its inherent flexibility. The plate pieces I plan to make myself as long as that hobby continues to flourish. In time I might make full plate legs by my own hand and relegate the maile to an older kit (if I get to the point where I do different periods). Right now I'm meandering through this kit and this craft/hobby and I don't know where it's going to take me.
Another big reason is that I think for poorer foot soldiers and men-at-arms in Germany during this period is that although there's a wide range of leg protection in use, it looks like maile still played a big role and it seems reasonable among poorer soldiers that older styles would be more common among them. So in a sense I'm pushing against the temptation to outfit as a king and looking to outfit as a more modest guy.
As for the padded chausses, does anyone know who sells them and who might do so at a modest price? If not, perhaps where I might find a good pattern? I don't have "sick" sewing skills but this craft has had me learn a number of other skills why not add that to my list.
Thanks,
Steve
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Chad Hanson
Location: Winona, MN Joined: 01 Aug 2013
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Thu 08 Aug, 2013 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| Ian S LaSpina wrote: |
Here's a write up I did about Tasha Kelly's pattern. I highly recommend her pattern, it's very easy to follow:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=28169
Any particular reason you're going for maille chausses for this kit? 1350's Germany allows the use of plate or splinted cuisses, and schynbalds or cased greaves on the lower legs. You wouldn't require any maille leg defense. If you do elect to go for maille chausses, then gamboised cuisses or padded chausses are a good idea. For a rigid leg defense, simple wool chausses with no padding is all you need.
Tasha's pattern really lends itself to a plate harness, since it's very good at suspending one properly, especially if the waist is made tight enough to support a leg harness from the hips.
Hips could benefit from some coverage by the coat of plates depending on it's shaping, but maille and padding is very appropriate. |
I'm planning to go with splinted cuisses and splinted greaves- it was my understanding that mail chausses were still worn under these, since every effigy I've seen (only a few, unfortunately) has mail covering the feet. This led me to believe that chausses were being used in that image, since I thought voiders, etc., were a 15th century invention.
From what I've seen, Tasha's pattern really is great (nice work on yours, btw), but I wanted to make sure there not some evidence that the Germans used a distinctly different style. I haven't found anything in my search so far.
Stephen- I know Matuls makes at least one style of padded chausses, and Steel Mastery makes some very nice looking ones as well. Steel Mastery also makes padded cuisses, if you'd prefer those.
Member of the Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association
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Ian S LaSpina
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| Posted: Thu 08 Aug, 2013 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| Chad Hanson wrote: |
I'm planning to go with splinted cuisses and splinted greaves- it was my understanding that mail chausses were still worn under these, since every effigy I've seen (only a few, unfortunately) has mail covering the feet. This led me to believe that chausses were being used in that image, since I thought voiders, etc., were a 15th century invention.
From what I've seen, Tasha's pattern really is great (nice work on yours, btw), but I wanted to make sure there not some evidence that the Germans used a distinctly different style. I haven't found anything in my search so far.
Stephen- I know Matuls makes at least one style of padded chausses, and Steel Mastery makes some very nice looking ones as well. Steel Mastery also makes padded cuisses, if you'd prefer those. |
This is an excellent resource for a quick overview of 14th and early 15th century effigy armor representations broken out by decade. This link is specifically the German effigies, but you can back out and see English and French as well to compare.
http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armour/effi...figies.htm
Specifically on feet for the 1350's it would indicate the maille, bare shoes, or sabatons would all be appropriate for a German impression. Maille foot coverings do not indicate maille chausses. So if you plan on going splinted cuisses and greaves, you can get away with little to no padding on the legs if you prefer. I wear plate cuisses and cased greaves and wear no padding at all underneath the leg harness.
My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest
"Monsters are dangerous, and just now Kings are dying like flies..."
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Thu 08 Aug, 2013 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Chad Hanson wrote: | | This led me to believe that chausses were being used in that image, since I thought voiders, etc., were a 15th century invention. |
How do you define voiders? Mid-14th century inventories mention mail gussets, sleeves, and skirts, as well as the curious musekyns which might be voiders for the elbow or mail vambraces.
http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/3919/1/Thom_Ri..._final.pdf
The inventory from 1357 of arms for Guillaume III of Bavaria, Count of Hainault.
http://www.archive.org/stream/annalesvolume00...g_djvu.txt
| Quote: | Item , une paire de kauchons de tournoy et j despareil.
Item, une paire de longhes kauces de déliet fier de maille. |
Item: one pair of chaussons for the tourney and one of the same
Item: one pair of long chausses of delicate iron of mail
There may be a difference in length, since the chausses are specified to be long, the chaussons might only be "knee-highs".
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Chad Hanson
Location: Winona, MN Joined: 01 Aug 2013
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Thu 08 Aug, 2013 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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Ian, thanks for that link- I had seen his 'All-Effigies' page and it has been a great help, somehow I missed that he also had divisions by region. I'll probably end up going with just shoes and upgrading to sabatons at some point, then. I'm pretty sure I'll be wearing some type of leg padding, though, since various testing seems to indicate that it has a significant effect on the protective value of the layer above it.
Mart- thanks for those links, very informative! I was using voiders as sort of a "catch-all" term for any sections of mail that would be used to fill the gaps between other pieces of armor. I probably should've been more specific. But, happily, it looks like I was mistaken- that should save me time, money, and weight.
I notice in a brief perusal of the 'mail' section of that 1st link that there is also a mention of mail cuisses. So perhaps I could use some mail cuisses or something like those chaussons in order to provide mail cover for the back of my knees? Also, how might those chaussons be suspended if they were in fact a 'knee-high'? Maybe by a garter slightly above the knee?
Member of the Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association
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Stephen Burger
Location: United States Joined: 05 Jul 2013
Posts: 29
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| Posted: Fri 09 Aug, 2013 6:33 am Post subject: |
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A couple of things. One I really love the pourpoint work you did and I definitely see one if not many in my future. In fact, in my Schola Saint George group, we work in lighter gear for class for sparring/training with wasters and I find my gambeson/zuparello and heavy gambeson lacking in a couple of areas. I think that sleeve design, even if I added extra padding than the garment calls for, would make mobility much better. My lighter garment is form fitting and moves reasonably well but lacks enough padding for some of my heavier hitting sparring partners, the heavier garment, is terrible and I've already cut seams and such to aid in movement. If I made two of those, one for use under armor, which I would build to spec and one I padded more heavily and perhaps slipped some hard plastic into (hidden of course) would be great. In fact I might make the latter completely modern and in the colors of our school. Maybe my wife will help:)
On hidden plates under maile, how were these pointed? I'm inspired by the von Arnsberg effigy and he has no visible elbow protection. That just won't do for me and although I could point to the maile on the outside, just to mix it up I am considering "hiding" my elbows under my maile. I didn't think arming points like one might see on later garments were all that common in the mid 14th. Am I mistaken?
On Sabatons and legs, would plate sabatons be completely unheard of on mixed maile and plate legs? From the documentation provided in this thread it seems like Germans went without foot protection a lot during this period but that won't do for me and this is one place that plate wins out for me (in addition to joints). An incidental foot step or an azza landing on my foot just won't please me one bit! So I'd like to go with sabatons without committing to full plate legs. Is that cool?
Anyway, this whole thread has been really great and informative. Thanks everyone for your contributions.
Steve
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Fri 09 Aug, 2013 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| Chad Hanson wrote: | | I notice in a brief perusal of the 'mail' section of that 1st link that there is also a mention of mail cuisses. So perhaps I could use some mail cuisses or something like those chaussons in order to provide mail cover for the back of my knees? Also, how might those chaussons be suspended if they were in fact a 'knee-high'? Maybe by a garter slightly above the knee? |
The mail cuisses are one of the rare mentions, like the latten (brass) mail in that thesis. The only clear picture of mail cuisses that springs to mind is from the century-earlier Westminster Psalter.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4150/8415/
I think you could extend the cuisses over the knee without too much difficulty. As for the chaussons, that's just my best guess. The fact that one is missing seems common with socks.  A garter seems as good of a guess for suspension as any other, Richardson's thesis does mention purchasing new leather belts for the paunces (mail skirts), and we know aventails were suspended from a leather band. The leather would have to come off to clean the mail by tumbling in a barrel, and might have been routinely replaced.
Another confusing aspect in the mid-14th century is the documented use of jaserant armor, mail and padding sandwiched between layers of fabric. It could be that many of the visual sources which appear to show gamboised cuisses are, in fact, showing jaserant work. Again, from the Count of Hainault 1357 inventory:
| Quote: | Premiers, ij paires de plattes de wière, s'en sont les unes couviertes d'un drap d'or et les autres d'un bleu velluiel à j escut des armez Monsigneur le conte Willaume.
Item , ij paires de plattes à jouster, de coy li une est couvierte d'un noir velluiel et l'autre d'un bleu.
Item , une paire de plattes à jouster qui sont couviertes d'un drap d'or et furent Monsigneur Ânsiaul de Sars.
Item , une paire de plattes à jouster.
Item , ij paires de plattes de wière des armes de Haynnau.
Item, vij paires de plattes de le vièse manière.
Item , une paire de plattes de rouge velluiel à ij kainnes d'argent et j billet ' d'argent.
Item , une paire de grandes plattes couviertes d'une rouge torse.
Item , viij haubrigons et j de déliet fier.
Item', vi pans, s'en y a j de jaserant.
Item, viij paires de manches, s'en sont les ij paires de jaserant et ij autres paires de déliet fier.
Item , ix barbières , s'en sont les iij de jaserant. Item, ij collerettes de fort fier, et une de déliet fier.
Item, iiij paires de kauchons de v^ière, s'en est une paire dorée.
Item , une paire de kauchons de tournoy et j despareil.
Item, une paire de longhes kauces de déliet fier de maille.
Item , une paire de plus gros fier de celi manière et unekauche despareille.
Item, une coiffe de le vièse manière, à fleur de lis de laiton.
Item , ij paires de musekins de jaserant.
Item , iiij paires d'autres fier et une piécette de déliet fier. |
And the best collaborative translation, so far:
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...p;t=163323
First, 2 pairs of plates of war, of which one covered with cloth of gold and the other of a blue velvet. 1 shield with the arms of Lord, the Count William.
Item, 2 pairs of plates for jousting (de coy li) one is covered with black velvet and the other one blue.
Item, a pair of plates for jousting which are covered with cloth of gold and were Lord Ansiaul of Sars'.
Item, one pair of plates for the joust.
Item, 2 pair of plates of war with the arms of Hainault.
Item, 7 pair of plates of the old style.
Item, one pair of plates of red velvet to 2 (kainnes) of silver and 1 billet of silver.
Item, a pair of large plates covered with a red torse.
Item, 8 haubergeons and one of delicate iron (small rings).
Item, 6 paunces, of which one is of jaserant.
Item, 8 pairs of sleeves, of which 2 pairs are of jaserant, and 2 other pairs of delicate iron (small rings).
Item, 9 aventails out of them 3 of jaserant.
Item, 2 collars of strong iron and one of delicate iron (small rings).
Item, 3 pair of (kauchons=chaussons?) of war , therein is one golden pair.
Item, one pair of chaussons for the tourney and one of the same.
Item, one pair of long chausses of delicate iron (small rings) of mail.
Item, a pair of larger iron (big rings) of that manner and one chausse of the same.
Item, a coif of the old style with fleur-de-lis of latten.
Item, 2 musekins of jaserant.
Item, 4 pair of others-iron and a small piece of delicate iron (small rings).
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Fri 09 Aug, 2013 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| Stephen Burger wrote: | | On Sabatons and legs, would plate sabatons be completely unheard of on mixed maile and plate legs? From the documentation provided in this thread it seems like Germans went without foot protection a lot during this period but that won't do for me and this is one place that plate wins out for me (in addition to joints). An incidental foot step or an azza landing on my foot just won't please me one bit! So I'd like to go with sabatons without committing to full plate legs. Is that cool? |
There's always the "armored shoes" excavated at Wisby, Regn. no. Pss 10. Each one has 4 plates covering the top of the foot forming a long, slightly curving triangle. The plates were riveted beneath leather, though whether this was the actual shoe or a leather cover is not stated. There is also a 5th rectangular plate which is associated, but whose placement is uncertain and differs in being mounted above the leather. It's curved along the long axis, so it might have been located over the heel/Achilles tendon. Sometimes you see scale covered shoes with plate schynbalds or greaves, so I suspect separate shoe coverings were available.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Stephen Burger
Location: United States Joined: 05 Jul 2013
Posts: 29
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| Posted: Sat 17 Aug, 2013 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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I'm so glad you guys turned me on to effigies and brasses. Wow, what a wealth of info. The downside (an upside too) is that Germany during the period of my interest is very diverse in its use of armor and other gear. This image seem really interesting in that firstly, the sleeves are very baggy and 3/4 length, very much like my Indian hauberk. I like that about it:) I also like the sword suspension system, since I'm having a hard time deciding on one and the whole "mystery" plaque belt attachment system is going to be hard for me to sort out just now.
So, I like this gent's simple belt, the period attributed to him (1355) his region, which is very close to my paternal grandfather's region and the attachment system looks like something I can fabricate if only I could figure out how it actually attaches to his belt. It looks almost as though the belt from the scabbard goes through the knot of his main belt on the left, behind and back around to the right side and the lower belt is perhaps tied or buckled further back on the main belt. Might anyone have any insight or simply better eyes than me on this one?
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/2507/2925/#top
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