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J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
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PostPosted: Sat 26 Sep, 2009 7:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Artis Aboltins wrote:
I do not have time right now but have the book and will try to look up apropriate passages about the wound distribution and characteristics from the investigation of the Battle of Visby site in nearest future.


Great, thanks. It would be great to get some hard evidence to balance the various theories we have heard.
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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Sat 26 Sep, 2009 4:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allright I got the "Armour from the battle of Visby" open in front of me on page 160 so here goes:
"Injuries from the cutting weapons (swords and axes) are buy far the most numerous and occur in 456 cases. I have not, however, succeeded in determining with any degre of certainty whether an injury has been caused by an axe or a sword, for which reason I am dealing with them jointly under one head in the following survery. Injuries from the arrows are also plentiful (126 cases) and some of these (60 cases) are combined with cuts. Injuries from lances are impossible to distinguish from arrow wounds, because arrows have been of different sizes.
Furthermore, we have to consider the "morning-stars"; these consisted of a wooden ball studded with square or hexagonal spikes and attached with a chain to a handle. With these weapons warriors dealt each other blows, chiefly on the head. It is probably impossible to distinguish between injuries fro a "morning-star" or an arrow, as it is not certain whether the shape of the iron points of the arrow-heads differ from those of the "morning-star" .....(follows description of how many remains with visiable injuries have been found in which of the digs)...
"In judging the injuries, we must remember that we have only been able to note a very small part of the injuries which the warriors actually sustained; for only very powerfull blows could penetrate right through the bone and leave permanent marks there"..... "as it has been menthioned in Chapter III, several crania have been found in which the coif have been cut to pieces and the blow had partially penetrated to the bones of the cranium." He follows with the detailed description of the various inuries, but of special interest for us is figure 177 (page 174) as it shows the oisutuib if the wounds on the body of a man. There is a remarkiable ammount of injuries to the arms and legs, and none whatsoever to the chest. As about injuries to the head, he writes that in common grave 1 42,3% of man have injuries to the cranium (head) in common grave 2 it is 52.3% and in common grave 3, only 5.4%. Author attributs it to the fact that warriors burried in common grave 3 probably had better armour, including better protection for the head.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Sun 27 Sep, 2009 3:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is strange that he doesn't mention pole arms since they would have been one of the more common weapons. I'm betting that most of the damaged to coifs was done with these weapons. I seriously doubt that his morning star played much of a role in the fighting though there might have been a few individuals with them.
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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Sun 27 Sep, 2009 5:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
It is strange that he doesn't mention pole arms since they would have been one of the more common weapons. I'm betting that most of the damaged to coifs was done with these weapons. I seriously doubt that his morning star played much of a role in the fighting though there might have been a few individuals with them.


Well, he does says that it was impossible to distinguish between the injuries caused by swords and axes - I assume he isconsidering polearms to be close to axes with regards to the style of injuries they would cause.
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Wed 30 Sep, 2009 5:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Artis, were any more details provided on the composition of the 'coifs' that were cut to pieces?
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Gary A. Chelette




Location: Houston, Texas
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PostPosted: Wed 30 Sep, 2009 2:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's been a long time since I've been in here, glade to see it still lively!

Greeting to all.

Big Grin

Are you scared, Connor?
No, Cousin Dugal. I'm not!
Don't talk nonsense, man. I peed my kilt the first time I went into battle.
Oh, aye. Angus pees his kilt all the time!
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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Wed 30 Sep, 2009 3:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
Artis, were any more details provided on the composition of the 'coifs' that were cut to pieces?


Bit to tired to look it up tonight but will check the info tomorrow - I have seen the ones in museum in Visby though and they were all riveted mail coifs - same about ones in pictures in the book.
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Mike Sale




Location: Lincoln
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PostPosted: Mon 12 Oct, 2009 9:15 am    Post subject: Romans, Teutones, Northmen         Reply with quote

hello, why didn't these guys wear a padded under garment with the mail? thanks? Mike
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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Mon 12 Oct, 2009 9:19 am    Post subject: Re: Romans, Teutones, Northmen         Reply with quote

Mike Sale wrote:
hello, why didn't these guys wear a padded under garment with the mail? thanks? Mike


They did - but the remains of such garments are not preserved, especially not in a conditions like the ones in the mass graves.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Mon 12 Oct, 2009 3:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Romans, Teutones, Northmen         Reply with quote

Artis Aboltins wrote:
Mike Sale wrote:
hello, why didn't these guys wear a padded under garment with the mail? thanks? Mike


They did - but the remains of such garments are not preserved, especially not in a conditions like the ones in the mass graves.


Some did. Some simply wore a heavy tunic or two. Some wore mail that had an integrated padded liner, which meant that there was no need for a separate padded garment. IMO integrated liners were more common than surviving examples lead us to believe.
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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Tue 13 Oct, 2009 1:38 am    Post subject: Re: Romans, Teutones, Northmen         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Artis Aboltins wrote:
Mike Sale wrote:
hello, why didn't these guys wear a padded under garment with the mail? thanks? Mike


They did - but the remains of such garments are not preserved, especially not in a conditions like the ones in the mass graves.


Some did. Some simply wore a heavy tunic or two. Some wore mail that had an integrated padded liner, which meant that there was no need for a separate padded garment. IMO integrated liners were more common than surviving examples lead us to believe.


Hmm, Dan, do we have any serious evidence of the integrated liners in the body protections? The problem with them, as I see it, is the cleaning of those - as after some time you have to clean the underarmour garments, one way or another and same for mail that means that you would have to remove the integrated garment and then re-attach it.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Oct, 2009 4:56 am    Post subject: Re: Romans, Teutones, Northmen         Reply with quote

Artis Aboltins wrote:
Hmm, Dan, do we have any serious evidence of the integrated liners in the body protections?

Any time you see mail being depicted with some sort of edging (e.g. Roman Hamata, Bayeux Tapestry) it is reasonable to assume that the armour has an integrated liner.

Quote:
The problem with them, as I see it, is the cleaning of those - as after some time you have to clean the underarmour garments, one way or another and same for mail that means that you would have to remove the integrated garment and then re-attach it.

Not really an issue since in most cultures at this time the person who wore mail was not the person who cleaned and maintained the mail. We have the account where Usamah ripped open his kazaghand just to show Saladin how it was made. He wouldn't have thought twice about it since afterwards he would have just handed it to his servants to repair.
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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Tue 13 Oct, 2009 5:50 am    Post subject: Re: Romans, Teutones, Northmen         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Artis Aboltins wrote:
Hmm, Dan, do we have any serious evidence of the integrated liners in the body protections?

Any time you see mail being depicted with some sort of edging (e.g. Roman Hamata, Bayeux Tapestry) it is reasonable to assume that the armour has an integrated liner.


Still it is only an assumption - as we have nothing in the way of "hard evidence". IMO, it would be reasonable to assume the integrated liners in the smaller parts of armour - like coifs and gauntlets, while for the mail shirts/hauberks it would be more reasojnable to assume separate garment - of various types.
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Steven H




Location: Boston
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PostPosted: Tue 13 Oct, 2009 12:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Romans, Teutones, Northmen         Reply with quote

Artis Aboltins wrote:
Dan Howard wrote:
Artis Aboltins wrote:
Hmm, Dan, do we have any serious evidence of the integrated liners in the body protections?

Any time you see mail being depicted with some sort of edging (e.g. Roman Hamata, Bayeux Tapestry) it is reasonable to assume that the armour has an integrated liner.


Still it is only an assumption - as we have nothing in the way of "hard evidence". IMO, it would be reasonable to assume the integrated liners in the smaller parts of armour - like coifs and gauntlets, while for the mail shirts/hauberks it would be more reasojnable to assume separate garment - of various types.


Re-sewing a liner into an entire hauberk still wouldn't be time consuming. Maybe an hour for a skilled person.

Cheers,
Steven

Kunstbruder - Boston area Historical Combat Study
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Tue 13 Oct, 2009 1:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Romans, Teutones, Northmen         Reply with quote

Artis Aboltins wrote:
Still it is only an assumption - as we have nothing in the way of "hard evidence". IMO, it would be reasonable to assume the integrated liners in the smaller parts of armour - like coifs and gauntlets, while for the mail shirts/hauberks it would be more reasojnable to assume separate garment - of various types.

So what is your alternate explaination for the existence of leather edging on some types of mail?
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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Tue 13 Oct, 2009 2:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Romans, Teutones, Northmen         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Artis Aboltins wrote:
Still it is only an assumption - as we have nothing in the way of "hard evidence". IMO, it would be reasonable to assume the integrated liners in the smaller parts of armour - like coifs and gauntlets, while for the mail shirts/hauberks it would be more reasojnable to assume separate garment - of various types.

So what is your alternate explaination for the existence of leather edging on some types of mail?


Well, an edging perharps? Especially for the Lorica Hamata "neckpeace". Mind you I am not saying it could not have been a liner - just that we have no hard evidence that it was. So it would not be really correct to claim there was a liner.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Wed 14 Oct, 2009 4:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I never claimed that it had a liner. I claimed that the most reasonable explanation is an integrated liner. Hamata has leather edging on both edges of the shoulder flaps. It has nothing to do with making it rest easier on the neck. The construction works better if it has a liner.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Mon 26 Oct, 2009 3:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
[ And there are just as many or more accounts stating that mail could resist the longbow. It depends on the type of mail, the type of arrow, the type of bow, the skill of the archer, the range, etc, etc. The only thing that really matters is whether armour penetration occurred often enough to affect to outcome of a battle. The answer is a resounding NO.


FWIW the article just published by Nathan includes all of the commonly cited sources that I could personally verify. Accounts that describe mail both resistng and being defeated by various weapons.

http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_mail.html

It was intended as a central reference so that the same issues didn't get repeated over and over.
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