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Tim Rivera





Joined: 22 Mar 2010

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Mon 13 May, 2013 9:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent C wrote:
I think we're using the term montante a little liberally. Many of the manuscripts make a differentiation between the montante and the swords used by the "esquadron volante", or forward troops. Montante were lighter, tending around 5-5.5 lbs. The 6lb (and up) variety of two-handed sword were the ones used by the forward troops, fighting pikes and heavier armor.


Vincent C wrote:
Montante were meant to fight in duels or hilarious amounts of troops, but not shock/front line troops.


What are your sources for the above statements, specifically that montantes are differentiated from two-handers on the front lines, and that montantes are meant for duels? I'd be interested in reading them.
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Daniel Wallace




Location: Pennsylvania USA
Joined: 07 Aug 2011

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Mon 13 May, 2013 9:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

let me see here gotta pull up my book, the one i have good info on, its about 75mm to the inside of the parrying lug (these are a flowering pattern) this was the sword i made a wooded model of, and found it hard to fit my hand in there. though i am familiar with the plates from Marozzo where it shows the blade held above the quillon in this fashion, and the lugs are close to the guard. perhaps if the movement begins with the hand in this position its not uncomfortable or cumbersome.

also my full scale drawing on AA73 (that i never got finished) once overlaid is almost an exact match for where the lugs begin and end. they are both about 3 1/2 in to the tip of the parring lugs. which in my experience making knife grips 4 in to me is tight, under it is pretty unreasonable unless you got really small hands.

but i don't think its impossible to half sword these swords, i just haven't been looking into them enough lately to find hard written evidence that it was done. i think this was something that was discussed before is that most people grow up to a two handed sword and apply what they know about it to a two handed sword, which may not be the proper form for these swords.
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Tim Rivera





Joined: 22 Mar 2010

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Mon 13 May, 2013 10:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Daniel Wallace wrote:
but i don't think its impossible to half sword these swords, i just haven't been looking into them enough lately to find hard written evidence that it was done.


For the montante, Godinho (1599) advises against doing so, and Pérez de Mendoza (1675) advises for it.
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Vincent C




Location: Northern VA
Joined: 24 Aug 2009

Posts: 84

PostPosted: Mon 13 May, 2013 10:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Tim, the difference between pike/front lines swords and montante was one of the first things Steve Hicks told me about when I joined NoVA assalto. I sent him a message asking about the name difference since I can neither remember it or find it anywhere in my montante notes, it hasn't come up much since then at practice.

The best use I've found for the parrying hooks is using them without gripping to help keep rapiers away by artificially shortening the space down my blade they can thrust/wind around. One of the rapier guys from VAF calls them the most irritating thing about the sword because I can move him offline or thrust forward without being in danger. The ricasso likewise shortens the part of the blade that flexes the most, when you swing, this shortening helps the blade move with little more authority and decreases torque from flex in directional transitions. I don't know if that's its function or a side effect of whatever else it was used for. It's what I've noticed

Quote:
Montante - seems to be defined as a sword not intended for war - but civil functions.


As I understand it there are multiple accounts of montante being used by marines and explorers as well as continental troops in battle. Off the top of my head I remember one account of two men with montante on a ship holding off a Thai pirate boarding party while everyone else was arming below deck. There are also accounts of its use in Africa and south east Asia.


Marozzo defines his guards for the spadone by hip position as well as the plane of the sword. Shifting your hips with your arms is supposed to power most of the movements in the primo assalto, otherwise if done with speed you get tired very quickly.

Honor, compassion, knowledge.
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P. Schontzler




Location: WA, USA
Joined: 15 Apr 2013

Posts: 99

PostPosted: Mon 13 May, 2013 11:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent C wrote:

As I understand it there are multiple accounts of montante being used by marines and explorers as well as continental troops in battle. Off the top of my head I remember one account of two men with montante on a ship holding off a Thai pirate boarding party while everyone else was arming below deck. There are also accounts of its use in Africa and south east Asia.


Could you direct me to the source of that encounter? It sounds like an exciting read. Happy
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Daniel Wallace




Location: Pennsylvania USA
Joined: 07 Aug 2011

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Tue 14 May, 2013 8:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent C wrote:


The best use I've found for the parrying hooks is using them without gripping to help keep rapiers away by artificially shortening the space down my blade they can thrust/wind around. One of the rapier guys from VAF calls them the most irritating thing about the sword because I can move him offline or thrust forward without being in danger. The ricasso likewise shortens the part of the blade that flexes the most, when you swing, this shortening helps the blade move with little more authority and decreases torque from flex in directional transitions. I don't know if that's its function or a side effect of whatever else it was used for. It's what I've noticed





some insight i was looking for into the lugs. the Memorial quotes so many moments which involve deflecting a blade away that i had a suspicion that the parrier haken would aid in. contact with an opponents blade within this section was one of the reason i believed the ricasso on these swords were extended beyond the lugs. if this part of the blade is going to receive the most contact, then it should be a little more beefy. if i remember the Memorial correctly, almost every movement has blade contact in a way the sword acts as much as a shield as weapon.

secondly a big ricasso and limited fuller (which i don't see extend past the first 1/3 of the blade) maybe just to help the swords pivot point. if anyone has looked at the videos above, this sword tends to pivot around the last 2/4th of the blade. and those that have handled originals state that the sword is fairly blade heavy. so this little bit of blade weight, shouldn't hinder the sword at all, but actually help in articulating it's movements when acted out properly.


Vincent had discussed a few times before on other posts concerning these swords that - there's a chance you can find they all over the place. they were light, fast, powerful weapons, kind of like the heavy side arm of their day. (not your 9mm, but your AR15)

Tim, thanks for posting up the references I'm going to have to give them a look as soon as i get time to get back into researching mode Happy
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