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Don Stanko
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 Posted: Mon 22 Apr, 2013 5:30 am Post subject: |
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Bruno offers some sound advice. I don't think anybody can accurately authenticate the sword by looking at photos, so the purchase will come with some inherent risk. Something to consider, Craig and Peter are probably the two people I trust the most to assess the authenticity of a medieval sword. Since both of them have some reservations about this sword, it might be hard to sell it when the time comes. If you like the sword and are not concerned about recovering your investment, then I would buy it. But, if you see yourself selling the sword in the future, you might want to browse Hermann-Historica, Czernys, or Bonhams and see the medieval swords they have available at auction. All three have current auctions with medieval swords for sale. You might even find one you like better than this sword.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Mon 22 Apr, 2013 5:37 am Post subject: |
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I trust Craig and Peter as well. Given their reservations, it seems way too expensive considering the risk. There are plenty of other swords on the market that are both cheaper and easier to authenticate.
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Charles Richmond
Location: Casstown Ohio Joined: 16 May 2011
Posts: 39
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| Posted: Mon 22 Apr, 2013 7:34 am Post subject: |
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Maybe a minor discrepancy, but worth commenting upon after viewing the second set of photos, especially the second photo of the 'handle' labeled 'back'.
The outside diameter of the grip seems to fit the diameter of the riser present on the top of the cross quite well, but if one looks at the fit of the grip to the pommel, well there is no real fit of the grip to the pommel other than it is there.
If this sword was meant to be wielded, why leave a sharp metal shoulder right where it will almost be sure to abrade your grippers?
If the discrepancy is being dismissed as shrinkage, then why doesn't the entire grip display the reduction in diameter, along with a gap visible between either the guard and grip, or the pommel and grip?
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Gregory J. Liebau
Location: Dinuba, CA Joined: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 669
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| Posted: Mon 22 Apr, 2013 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| Cornelis Tromp wrote: |
@Gregory
This "foot" reinforces the suspicion that the hilt is from the end of the 15th century, made in 1492.
this is a feature that frequently occurs at the end of the 15th century (last 2 decades) on cinquedeas, katzbalgers, swords, and messer guards !
see fe the 15thC hybride sword/messer http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?...ght=messer |
Jasper,
The 'foot' on this sword is not made nearly like a single example in that post. Almost all of those are flush with the tang on two sides only, forged down over it on the flats. On David's example it is a ring completely surrounding the tang... Something that would be very hard to do with the standard forging techniques for a cross guard and is not like the examples you show at all except the two below:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?...&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?...&stc=1
And I have every reason to suspect that with regards to the first, it is a separate ring around the guard, and was not initially attached during construction (you can see an example further down where such a ring would have been attached before assembly). The second example is unique on the whole page, and is of a form and period quite different than the sword in question... David's shows clear signs of being a solid piece and of being cast, methinks.
-Gregory
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Eric W. Norenberg
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| Posted: Mon 22 Apr, 2013 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| Ralph Grinly wrote: | | ... The 'date" on the blade, to me..is reading A.D. 1492 ?? Back then..would anyone have written a date on an object, prefaced by AD ?? |
Hi Ralph,
In short, yes, lots of finely crafted objects from the period got dated, I think kind of to show their significance. The average soldier's sword would most likely not have any inscription, date or otherwise, just as a poor man's house probably won't have a dated cornerstone... But if a thing was made for an important person, and crafted to befit (and show off) their status, then yes, more likely that there would be some kind of inscription, oft including a date (either to show when made or when given to the recipient).
The A.D. bit is very normal for the period as well. These days we use it to simply place an event in the correct historical period (cue Monty Python: "the place is England. The year, 787" "B.C. then?" "No, not B.C.! Nothing happened in England in 787 B.C...." etc.), but historically it very explicitly read as "Anno Domini", which everyone understood as "in the year of our Lord." More than just a precise dating, it was an expression or declaration of identity and allegiance, relating to the Catholic Church of Rome.
Cheers!
Eric
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Cornelis Tromp
Location: Holland Joined: 03 Jan 2010
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Mon 22 Apr, 2013 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| Gregory J. Liebau wrote: | | Cornelis Tromp wrote: |
@Gregory
This "foot" reinforces the suspicion that the hilt is from the end of the 15th century, made in 1492.
this is a feature that frequently occurs at the end of the 15th century (last 2 decades) on cinquedeas, katzbalgers, swords, and messer guards !
see fe the 15thC hybride sword/messer http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?...ght=messer |
Jasper,
The 'foot' on this sword is not made nearly like a single example in that post. Almost all of those are flush with the tang on two sides only, forged down over it on the flats. On David's example it is a ring completely surrounding the tang... Something that would be very hard to do with the standard forging techniques for a cross guard and is not like the examples you show at all except the two below:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?...&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?...&stc=1
And I have every reason to suspect that with regards to the first, it is a separate ring around the guard, and was not initially attached during construction (you can see an example further down where such a ring would have been attached before assembly). The second example is unique on the whole page, and is of a form and period quite different than the sword in question... David's shows clear signs of being a solid piece and of being cast, methinks.
-Gregory |
Hi Gregory,
Here are some examples Ondertaking the end of the grip is part of the cross.
whereby the authenticity of the Katzbalger from the museum at Solingen still is under debate.
best,
Jasper
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Cornelis Tromp
Location: Holland Joined: 03 Jan 2010
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Mon 22 Apr, 2013 10:53 am Post subject: |
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some pictures I still had in my files.
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Gregory J. Liebau
Location: Dinuba, CA Joined: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 669
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| Posted: Mon 22 Apr, 2013 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| Cornelis Tromp wrote: | | some pictures I still had in my files. |
That's the same sword we're discussing! 
The other examples are obviously good, but none of them are quite like this with regards to the style of cross guard. Almost every example of an arming sword that looks like this one discussed so far does not have the foot on the cross. Also, it's still impossible to get past how bulky it is - surely it seems cast. I can't emphasize that enough.
Thanks for taking the time to provide the photos.
-Gregory
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Cornelis Tromp
Location: Holland Joined: 03 Jan 2010
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Mon 22 Apr, 2013 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Gregory J. Liebau wrote: | | Cornelis Tromp wrote: | | some pictures I still had in my files. |
That's the same sword we're discussing!
The other examples are obviously good, but none of them are quite like this with regards to the style of cross guard. Almost every example of an arming sword that looks like this one discussed so far does not have the foot on the cross. Also, it's still impossible to get past how bulky it is - surely it seems cast. I can't emphasize that enough.
Thanks for taking the time to provide the photos.
-Gregory |
Hi Gregory,
you are welcome. I studied the sword a few years ago but never acquired it. The pictures I still kept on my PC.
the examples, by the way from the same time span as the sword under discussion, are in order to show that such a ring is not necessarily a sign of molding/casting , as you mentioned in one of your previous posts, nothing more.
bulkiness for me is also not a criterion for casting, I do not think the proportions of the hilt are wrong here.
apart from this, most of the later Victorian reproductions and recent fakes are forged, not casted.
best,
Jasper
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David Davidson
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| Posted: Mon 22 Apr, 2013 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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Cornelis/Jasper that's incredible that you have seen this exact sword... Where was it that you saw it because I see you are in Holland and I thought it had been in Australia for decades. Any particular reason why you did not require it also?
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Cornelis Tromp
Location: Holland Joined: 03 Jan 2010
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Mon 22 Apr, 2013 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| David Davidson wrote: | | Cornelis/Jasper that's incredible that you have seen this exact sword... Where was it that you saw it because I see you are in Holland and I thought it had been in Australia for decades. Any particular reason why you did not require it also? |
I've never seen it in real life, for that kind of money you should inspect. the sword in real life, looking for imperfections, weight, balance, pivots. how it is constructed eso.
as you can read in this thread, I am the only one who expect it to be an authentic sword.
This is merely based on photos and a tiny bit of experience as a student of "old rusty iron"/the medieval swords I own, apart from this I have taken a long time to come to this conclusion. this was not an easy one.
advice from real authorities of the sword, People with the mediėval sword flowing through their veins like Peter Johnsson and Craig Johnson ( and possibly others I do not know) , I would not lay down their advice beside me.
maybe there is a possibility of testing on authenticity before purchase the sword , I and others are definitely looking forward to this outcome whatever it is.
I wish you much wisdom
best,
Jasper
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Bruno Giordan
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| Posted: Tue 23 Apr, 2013 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| David Davidson wrote: | | Cornelis/Jasper that's incredible that you have seen this exact sword... Where was it that you saw it because I see you are in Holland and I thought it had been in Australia for decades. Any particular reason why you did not require it also? |
Cornelis is likely an experienced collector, this should sound as an important warning to you.
I would add that the price for this sword should also sound an alarm bell since it is ten times too much or more for an historismus, but it would be ten times less of what a real sword from the XVth century could fetch being in such well preserved conditions.
I think you should tell the vendor of the risk implied in such a buy.
If it is an historismus blade you risk to pay an enormity for it. If I were very rich I would possibly take the risk of throwing a lesser figure just for the sake of having it properly analized in the hope of having made an historical buy, but that would be just a big gamble.
If I were the owner I would have the leather carbon dated in order to gain a definitive confirmation of this piece.
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David Davidson
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| Posted: Tue 23 Apr, 2013 6:25 am Post subject: |
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I'm able to do another inspection this week so want to make sure I check everything. The great thing is it is literally a 5 minute drive away. I'm going to check the weight and the balance point. What other things would you recommend me look at and what kind of imperfections?.. as that was mentioned.
Reading up as much as I have, I do now have strong doubts about the guard and grip also.
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Cornelis Tromp
Location: Holland Joined: 03 Jan 2010
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Tue 23 Apr, 2013 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| David Davidson wrote: | I'm able to do another inspection this week so want to make sure I check everything. The great thing is it is literally a 5 minute drive away. I'm going to check the weight and the balance point. What other things would you recommend me look at and what kind of imperfections?.. as that was mentioned.
Reading up as much as I have, I do now have strong doubts about the guard and grip also. |
I'm sorry, experience to assess medieval weapons is not possible to explain in a few sentences you really have to learn that yourself! it takes years.
further you may already have read my isolated, single and very clear opinion.
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