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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 18 Dec, 2012 10:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Woodruff wrote:
Ok, Nathan. I may not agree with everything you have said but I do agree with that last. Sorry if I caused any friction or if anyone felt that my posts were too off-topic. I am still learning how to use this communication medium to best effect and sometimes I make mistakes. I appreciate your feedback. I will do as you suggest.


Effectively communicating in this medium is a work in progress for me, too. Happy To be clear, I don't feel any friction. I'm trying to be matter-of-fact while repeating my points with additional info, but I'm not doing that great of a job doing it.

By the way, I agree with your original statement:

Scott Woodruff wrote:
The only way you are likely to get a decent messer for that price is if you make one yourself and don't count your labor as part of the cost unless you pay yourself $1 an hour.


That's exactly what I was emphasizing. He won't find a vendor/maker that can create a product meeting his criteria at his stated price point.

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Gregory J. Liebau




Location: Dinuba, CA
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PostPosted: Tue 18 Dec, 2012 11:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wouldn't be surprised if Lutel Handicraft could pull off a nice little messer for about this price - shipping & handling could wind up throwing it off a bit. They don't currently have anything like it in their catalog, although they do advertise a nice falchion that comes with a pretty little scabbard and suspension system for 280 EU. Perhaps a custom blade without the extras would be right around the $300 mark. I am unaware as to whether or not they charge more for custom work as a practice... But asking is worth a shot.

http://www.lutel-handicraft.com/?p=productsMo...hion-11008

http://www.lutel-handicraft.com/

-Gregory
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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Tue 18 Dec, 2012 11:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glad to hear it, Nathan. Communicating in this way is kind of weird, isn't it? We are so deeply programmed to look for emotion in communication that sometimes we see it where it does not exist.

Looking at the Lutel site, I noticed that they do have what is arguably a Kriegmesser in their "hand-and-a-half saber." (#11005) http://www.lutel-handicraft.com/?p=productsLi...ax,-Knives One could say that it is not a messer because it does not have riveted grip-scales, but apparently Peter Johnsson has made a replica of the same type and calls it a messer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOeTeVn1HXc
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 18 Dec, 2012 11:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Woodruff wrote:
Looking at the Lutel site, I noticed that they do have what is arguably a Kriegmesser in their "hand-and-a-half saber." (#11005) http://www.lutel-handicraft.com/?p=productsLi...ax,-Knives One could say that it is not a messer because it does not have riveted grip-scales, but apparently Peter Johnsson has made a replica of the same type and calls it a messer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOeTeVn1HXc


And as mentioned earlier by Chad, one must add 1-2 hundred dollars to the price point discussed here. At the current exchange rate, Lutel's #11005 model is $468.15 before shipping, etc.

Frankly, i think that's as close as he's going to get with the other option to go to Arma Bohemia and see if they can come up with a maker and project that could be around that price point.

Both options will result in reasonably historic-esque products.

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Gregory J. Liebau




Location: Dinuba, CA
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PostPosted: Wed 19 Dec, 2012 12:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan,

The falchion (which is closer the size specified by the OP) I posted is $370 US and that comes with a scabbard and belt. They show the option of removing the scabbard and suspension on simple swords reducing the price by 1500 CZK, which is about $80. It's also clear that Lutel charges more for longer blades just by browsing around their site. You did mention they will charge more for custom work, alas. Still, wouldn't hurt to ask about it and get the homework done! Lutel Handicraft has been getting great reviews lately.

Best of luck in your quest, Rich. Do share what you wind up getting!

-Gregory
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Wed 19 Dec, 2012 12:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Darksword has a messer, but they quality can be hit or miss: http://darksword-armory.com/products-page/med...sser-1350/
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Wed 19 Dec, 2012 12:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka Borscak wrote:
Darksword has a messer, but they quality can be hit or miss: http://darksword-armory.com/products-page/med...sser-1350/


It's also not at all historically accurate and one that the topic's author mentioned.

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Raymond Deancona





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PostPosted: Wed 19 Dec, 2012 5:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think a project, as mentioned earlier in the thread is the best way to go. There are makers (they have been mentioned on the forum before) who specialize in making parts. A large Bowie knife can be modified to the purpose with a new guard, handle and pommel. I've often thought Atlanta Cutlery's Texas Bowie: http://www.atlantacutlery.com/p-902-texas-bowie-knife.aspx would make an excellent start for this kind of project. Some of the Rev war dealers sometimes have sword parts for sale. (Godwin does, I've bought guards, etc from him before). But even so, the price point for do it yourself may reach 300 and that is before making a period scabbard. Good luck on this.
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Scott Hanson




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PostPosted: Wed 19 Dec, 2012 7:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just had to chime in with an off-topic point: the leaf spring in a truck could very well be 5160. Most are, as far as I'm aware.

On topic, I think that texas bowie would be a bit short for a messer, and not particularly historical.

I honestly think that if you want a quality messer, the price range is going to have to come up a bit. Probably about $500.

Proverbs 27:17 "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another"

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Joel N





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PostPosted: Wed 19 Dec, 2012 6:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Messer is my primary study in HEMA. I own two messers in the price range you are talking about. One is aluminum from Walter Neubauer. The other is steel from jinoswords.cz
I also have the Albion Marxbruder, but that's about twice the price range discussed.
All of these are blunts. My "sharp" right now is a machete. I don't know if there are any non-expensive messer sharps out there. Maybe Privateer Armory, but that's about it.
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Rich Knack




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PostPosted: Wed 19 Dec, 2012 6:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Even Privateer Armory isn't cheap anymore - e-mail reply I got from him said one of his 1/16" thick ground blades in a messer size would be $500 - which seems WAY overpriced for a blade like that, to me.
"Those who 'beat their swords into plows', will plow for those who don't."
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Christopher Treichel




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PostPosted: Wed 19 Dec, 2012 7:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

$500 overpriced.... Lets do a little bit of math.

Mr. Blade Smith works all by himself to keep costs down and keep our math simple.
He lives out in BUFU so he can get by only paying himself a modicum.
His overhead needs to cover the rent, food, health insurance, electrical bills, water, sewer, propane, oxy acetylene, coal, pay for tools, steel, not to mention put gas in his truck to go pick up steel and stuff. BTW how much do some of those cool tools cost? Metal lathe at least $3,000 used, Mill $3,000 used, Power hammer... assortment of hammers, anvils files etc...

His pay also needs to cover investments made in training and learning stuff you don't know (otherwise you would make your own sword). (Not trying to be negative just the way it is).

So how much do you pay a plummer or electrician per hour? If your out in BUFU you might get away with only $50....
A smith is a skilled laborer who needs to know his craft... as you said you don't want your messer looking like a POS or a sword like object more resembling a crowbar than what you had in mind.

So lets say the material to make the sword costs $30 and add another $10 for propane to run the forge and say $10 for some oxy acetelene to do a little welding. Electrical costs are not that much say only $10 per day. Almost forgot to add in a special kiln or a salt for heat treating.... Add in some more money...

So far thats $110. Now say it takes 8 hours of work to make the sword at $40 per hour (remember that includes his overhead) so another $360.... Adds up quick... unless you prefer someone in another country make it where you can pay a skilled worker $5 per day. Oh, and then make a sheath... another 4 hours and $30 of materials... Keeps adding up.

So, why do you think you see so many smiths and armorers come and go. They are also the first to bite the dust when the economy turns south as this is only a hobby.

I have an Arms and Armor Messer and don't think the $380 it cost was too much. They know they need to charge a fair rate to pay their employees.
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Rich Knack




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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2012 4:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For a 1/16" thick blade, ground from stock rather than forged - which seems a bit thin and wimpy for a messer, unless all I wanted was a good bottle-cutter that wasn't capable of much else, $500 seems a bit steep. DSA blades don't generally cost that much, and they're hand-forged in North America (Canada), not some Asian sweatshop.
"Those who 'beat their swords into plows', will plow for those who don't."
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Jeroen Averhals




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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2012 5:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is Fabri Armorum in the Czech Republic. They make a blunt replica of a Langmesser:
http://fabri-armorum.com/english/?id=tesaky.php
You could ask to make a lighter (slim) blade and ask them to sharpen the blade.

Vigor et Veritas
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Leo Todeschini
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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2012 5:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are some very interesting points being made here, but I would like to chime in with a couple from a maker.

To make it basically a good historical replica takes time and care to make, both in learning how to do it and in the object itself. There is the old story about a man who goes to a dentist and after 10 minutes the denstist says 'Mr Smith you can go now and that will be $200' Mr Smith asks how this can be justified and the denstist replies that it covers the 10 minutes and the 15 years of college and experience.

Making a plain messer loses some file work and some finishing but the cost difference between a basic version and a medium version is likely to be a couple of hours and on a job that may be 20 hours that is not that much.

Daggers blades are quicker to make than sword blades, but somewhere around 20 inches the speed with which you can work goes right down and so the cost goes right up, but the cost difference between say 22" and 26" is so negligible I would not consider it in my quoting, 30" I would add some over the 22" and so on until I hit 36" and the price would start to rise rapidly again. This reflects my tools and style of working and length of arms, others will see this differently.

Do not think that a messer blade is a simple thing, they are just as sophisticated as longsword blades in terms of taper transitions etc.

Lastly somebody commented that $300 is easily enough money to make such a simple thing. Firstly it is not a simple thing. Secondly how much do you pay a plumber? a car mechanic? a music teacher? or even a doctor? I can tell you now that if you want to be a doctor for example you need the money for the training and the smarts to do it, but after that you can go and learn. Where can we learn to make these things? The knowledge is hard won and slow to learn and a great deal of time is needed.

My car mechanic is cheap and charges about $90/hour, I don't charge this much, but lets say we halve it to $45/hour. If I take the $50 of material out of your $300 that leaves $250, take out some for kit depreciation and general costs and that leaves say $200. Divide this by $45 and you have 4 1/2 hours. Knock off half an hour for the email conversations and answering and you are left with 4 hours.

In reality any messer that can be custom made in 4 hours will not be great, you will have to look to a production one and there do not appear to be any at this price point I am afraid.

So in a nutshell, no $300 is not easily enough to make a messer.

Sorry for the rant, but I hope it clarifies a few things from the makers point of view.

Tod

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David Clark





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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2012 6:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I know nothing about these guys, but badger Blades has a boarding cutlass that may be similar to what the OP was wanting. Just remove most of the knucklguard.
http://www.badgerblades.com/cutlass.htm#board
It is at the bottom of the page
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Rich Knack




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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2012 7:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Badgers have the wrong style of hilt. The messer has riveted scales and a full-width tang.

Scott W. says he can make a messer for me, and to my desired specs, it will just take a bit. I am willing to wait.

"Those who 'beat their swords into plows', will plow for those who don't."
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Joel N





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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2012 11:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, I'll be curious to see how it turns out. I'm in the market for a sharp messer myself, but I haven't committed to anything yet.
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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2012 1:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you Leo for the insights. I really think that lower-end pieces can be made with more of an eye to historical accuraccy without unduly increasing price. I have found that at least sometimes a blade with bad characteristics takes just as much labor as one with really good characteristics. I just don't want to give the impression that I think that the products made by other makers are overpriced, if anything I am really impressed by the ability a lot of makers have to provide such excellent products at such reasonable prices, considering the economy and the difficult nature of the business.

Last edited by Scott Woodruff on Sun 23 Dec, 2012 9:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mike Capanelli




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PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2012 2:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rich Knack wrote:
For a 1/16" thick blade, ground from stock rather than forged - which seems a bit thin and wimpy for a messer, unless all I wanted was a good bottle-cutter that wasn't capable of much else, $500 seems a bit steep. DSA blades don't generally cost that much, and they're hand-forged in North America (Canada), not some Asian sweatshop.


About that.............

Winter is coming
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