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Howard Waddell
Industry Professional
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 Posted: Mon 25 Aug, 2003 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Ben Sweet wrote: | | Ah it's great to see some wide fullers...I'll be picking one up... don't know which one yet, havta see'em in a finished state....On your comming soon list for the Next Generation Albion Mark™ Medieval Line you have a XVII listed, since this is one of my favorites Types can you give up any info on this? And last can you give any info on The Albion Mark™ Peter Johnsson Museum Collection™ Svante when it will be available along with pics.? |
Hey Ben!
I am hoping that we can get Peter on the Forum here to answer your questions soon.
Thanks!
Howy
Albion Swords Ltd
http://albion-swords.com
http://filmswords.com
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Björn Hellqvist
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Mon 25 Aug, 2003 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | Ben Sweet wrote: | | Svante when it will be available along with pics.? |
I want the Svante, too. I love that sword. Absolutely love it. |
Here's a cool pic, showing the original and the reconstruction side-by-side. Despite weighing in at 1.8 kilos (half an ounce shy of 4 lbs), it is a very manouevrable sword. When John Clements got to handle it earlier this year, he absolutely loved it. The amazing thing is that the sword was the (I believe) sixth sword Peter had made - ever. He is just plain incredible!
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Ben Sweet
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| Posted: Mon 25 Aug, 2003 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Howard Waddell wrote: | | Ben Sweet wrote: | | Ah it's great to see some wide fullers...I'll be picking one up... don't know which one yet, havta see'em in a finished state....On your comming soon list for the Next Generation Albion Mark™ Medieval Line you have a XVII listed, since this is one of my favorites Types can you give up any info on this? And last can you give any info on The Albion Mark™ Peter Johnsson Museum Collection™ Svante when it will be available along with pics.? |
Hey Ben!
I am hoping that we can get Peter on the Forum here to answer your questions soon.
Thanks!
Howy |
Sounds great, Thanks Howy!
Nathan...yeppers I think for the past 3 or 4 years I have slobbered on my keyboard over this sword...
snatched pic from Albion Armorers
don't think it gets any better then this....
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 27 Aug, 2003 6:51 am Post subject: A type XVII sword... |
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| Ben Sweet wrote: | | ...On your comming soon list for the Next Generation Albion Mark? Medieval Line you have a XVII listed, since this is one of my favorites Types can you give up any info on this? And last can you give any info on The Albion Mark? Peter Johnsson Museum Collection? Svante when it will be available along with pics.? |
Hi Ben,
When working on the blades for the first batch of "New Generation" I was happy to get an opportunity to include a type XVII. It is a sword not often seen in production versions or in hand made custom projects either. For the 2003 Knife maker show in Solingen, Germany, I made a type XVII sword that came out nicely. Customers who study long-sword techniques were happy about handling characteristics and seemed generally surprised when they learned about the actual weight of the weapon. I had long wanted to make something showing a strong late 14th C feel and have looked at these type XVII swords as often as opportunity has allowed. Participating in the "Messer Macher Messe" in Solingen is an opportunity for me to make swords that are not in response to custom orders but spawned from latest impressions and recent research only. A way to explore new fields. I was happy with the return from the XVII. The blade I´ve designed for Albion is based on the experiences gained from that sword.
The sword for the Solingen show was in turn based on research on several different originals. One original I´ve documented (resides in the storerooms of the Historical Museum of Stockholm) was found in a field on the island of Gotland, and it may be a weapon contemporary with the famous battle of Visby 1361, although it is probably made a decade later. I´ve seen many other type XVII and handeled a number of them. Variation in size and mass is interesting. Some are big, heavy and long-bladed weapons probably demanding two hands for full controll (around 2 kilos), others are more like long gripped single hand swords (almost half that weight). Some have blades that are very akin to some later hexagonal sectioned cut & thrust swords: slim and agile, others are really "sharpened bars of steel" as Oakeshott puts it.
It is indeed a type that Oakeshott was less than enthusiastic about, saying: "There are many survivors of this type and most not all that handsome." "...on the whole a rather boring type" Perhaps this is a reason they are not often seen as modern recreations?
...I like them quite a bit, the nice ones, that is  The handsome ones are very knightly in character, stark, simple and uncompromising. As the blades are typically very stiff, they have a lot of authority and can be balanced to cheive a high point controll. The style and visual character is also attractive, at least to me: Fishtail or TV-screen shaped pommels with high rivet blocks. Simple guards that often are slightly downturned. Straight tapering edges and a clear hexagonal section. Strong points with square or diamnd section. Not so romantic and perhaps less generous in shape than type XII´s and XIII´s, but more blade width in the point area than the type XV´s. To me they are the epitome of the late 14th C knightly sword. A specialized weapon for a very specific period. They carry a lot of prescence and character.
When making such a sword today we need to keep in mind what the basic concept fo the design was: A need for a sword to stand a chance on battlefields that saw increasing use of heavy and solid armour. To create a weapon with a more agresive thrusting capability some compromise had to be made on cleaving power. A thin-bladed warsword from the early 14th C can have truly amazing cutting/cleaving power. To compare the type XVII to these monsters is unfair. The type XVII was never meant to do such things, but specialized in other areas:
With a sword of this kind you can employ halfswording techniques (this is really not effective with the broad thin blades most popular a few decades earlier) and the stiff and sturdy point stands a chance to penetrate mail and padded armour with well placed and well supported thrusts. They are not unlike the type XVa swords in this regard: precise point controll and quick manouverability (on those with that kind of balance) It takes a blade with sturdy cross section to make full advantage of the fencing /fighting techniques of this period (See Fiore). Look at the represetation in art from this period and you´ll get the idea: Men at arms on horse-back, clad in pointed bacinets with dog face visors, dove-breasted breast plates, heavily padded gambesons complemented with mail and iron-reinforced cuir bouilli. It is not a pick-nick to make an impression with a sword on such guys...
Solution: Go for the thrust instead. Or so is the popular consensus when we interpret these weapons today...
What is often overlooked is what effect a high stiffness will have on cutting/cleaving. It is possible to make a sword true to the character of type XVII and still get it to present some serious cutting power. If the target is difficult to cut to begin with, you will waste your efforts on slim edge geometries. In stead you have to work with the dynamic handling characterisitcs of the sword (Distribution of mass, inertia and dynamic balance). A thicker blade kan have the same final sharpening angle as the thinner sword but will have more material behind the edge to back it up. The effect is a weapon with a slim gothic outline that delivers heavy blows and precise thrusts. It can be swung on a bacinet without too much fear of it breaking (probably not cleaving the helmet, but surely stunning the poor guy inside) .
The blade I designed for Albion exceeds 90 cm in length, so the complete sword will be some 115+cm. These swords need some mass to really fulfill their potential, so it will not be a light weight: probably around 1.4 kilos. This is still not a boat anchor we are talking about here: it will be balanced for a high point controll with a forward pivot point close to the point.
When it comes to looks, I want it to scream late 14th century.
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Ben Sweet
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| Posted: Thu 28 Aug, 2003 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Peter, "...on the whole a rather boring type" but "a suburb sword" "beautifully balance and 'ready' in the hand" XVII.1 I am excited that you will be making your designed XVII for Albion and will be looking forward to purchasing one! For me this Type has always been the Knights sword I pictured in my mind and a favorite. Do you or Albion have any pictures from the Solingen 2003 of your XVII you can share? Any chance of seeing the XVII.1 or XVII.11at Albions?
| Quote: | The blade I designed for Albion exceeds 90 cm in length, so the complete sword will be some 115+cm. These swords need some mass to really fulfill their potential, so it will not be a light weight: probably around 1.4 kilos. This is still not a boat anchor we are talking about here: it will be balanced for a high point controll with a forward pivot point close to the point.
When it comes to looks, I want it to scream late 14th century. |
looks like great times for us collector/users ahead!
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sat 30 Aug, 2003 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| Ben Sweet wrote: | | Thanks Peter, "...on the whole a rather boring type" but "a suburb sword" "beautifully balance and 'ready' in the hand" XVII.1 I am excited that you will be making your designed XVII for Albion and will be looking forward to purchasing one! For me this Type has always been the Knights sword I pictured in my mind and a favorite. Do you or Albion have any pictures from the Solingen 2003 of your XVII you can share? Any chance of seeing the XVII.1 or XVII.11at Albions? |
Hi Ben,
Lutz Hoffmeister of the Deutsches Klingenmuseum photgraphed the swords I brought along to the show this year. Two of them went at the show to german collectors. The third might find a home in America.
The photos of Lutz´s will be shown on my coming webpage below prewious works. I am still working on this site. It has been a mutly year struggle, like so much else...
The swords yoummention have both very nice blades. The Albion one will be longer, but has the same proportions. My intention is that it will have a squashed wheel pommel, not one of these wedge-like fishtail ones. (It might be possible to have it with two versions of pommel, for the customer to choose. We´ll see how that works out.) The cross will be slightly downturned with gently flaring ends.
Best
Peter
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Lee Watts
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| Posted: Sat 30 Aug, 2003 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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come on albion show us a preview of theType XI andType XII .
my 2 most favourite sword types...
im tempted to get another albion sword very soon but il know il regret it when they bring out some of these new ones..
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Sun 31 Aug, 2003 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| Lee Watts wrote: | come on albion show us a preview of theType XI andType XII .
my 2 most favourite sword types...
im tempted to get another albion sword very soon but il know il regret it when they bring out some of these new ones.. |
Hi Lee,
Glad to hear you look forward to seeing these swords. You know, there are no photos of these swords yet. Only my blueprints and drawings. They are presently being developed, so unfortunatley we´ll have to wait a bit to see them. I will create original wax models of the hilt components as soon as the prototype blades are finished (blade is always first, then comes the hilt to make sure the balance is correct). This is a bonus with this production method: when I can make wax originals of the hilt components its possible to include volumes and shapes I know would be the typical result of forging them. It´s a bit diffiucult to explain, but has to do with how one shape transforms into the next. A flow of volumes and lines resulting from a preshape formed by the hammer into something else: if you strike one side, there will be results in another direction as well. Even the most simple straight guard has a certain inner logic to it, a character that tells you something about how it was forged. This is important to observe when making the original hilt components, if you want them to get that feel of hammer and anvil, even as they are sculpted in model makers wax.
I can describe the swords and maby you can form a picture in your mind:
XI: (or Xa, it´s an border line case here) there are a few subtle variations to shape in this type (as there is in most types for that matter...). The Gaddhjalt sword presently showing on the news page of Albion might be classified as an Oakeshott type XI (as well as a Geibig type 5). Have you seen that one, Lee? f you like type XI swords, that one might be an alternative. Remember: "Gaddhjalt" is not a special kind of sword that vikings used. It´s an old norse name for a hilt type found on swords that came to use late in the viking period, and continued in use long after the end of the viking era.
Other versions of blade shapes in ths type are shorter, fairly broad blades with a long point section. Bordering on XIa, but not quite, as they are still quite long.
There are also those that have a slow straight profile taper and a rather short point section. The XI presently being prepared for production is along the lines of this last type (to contrast its character to the blade of the Gaddhjalt): A longish blade with straight edges and a fuller that runs almost as long as on a classic type X. It will have a short point section that is shaped like a pointy spade, rather than a parabolic curve as seen on other swords. The hilt will be a "simple" straight cross (with some subtle volume sculpting-there is seldom something like a straight bar: often they have some nice curves and swellings in them. It is subtle, but its there) and a discoid pommel without protruding rivet head. Grip is around 4 inches, or slightly less, the type should look a bit short in the hilt when compared to the blade that will be around 90 cm long. It is a big weapon for sweeping blows that will make an impression on foes in mail.
XII: Blade is shorter and broader at the hilt (when compared to the XI/Xa above) with more profile taper, as can be expected in this type. Point section is also more severe, showing a parabolic curve to it. I wanted the sword to have a strong profile taper but not so much so it turns into a type XIV. Fuller will be fairly broad, crisp and deep, creating interesting volume activity in the base of the blade. Main section of the blade is a keen lenticular shape that continues beyond the fuller all the way to the point. (section is inspired by the blade of the "Solingen" sword, which is a ferocious cutter). This one will have a cross (of Oakeshott type2) that swells in the end and the middle with arms that ends in an octagonal section while the middle is rectagular in section. It will carry a deep wheel pommel and a high rivet block. To me this is a classic and perhaps the most attractive shape for the type XII. It might be a tad quicker in handling than its previous cousins while still being a sword meant to deliver heavy shearing blows.
Inspiration for this sword are several different originals, some of which I have handeled and other just seen in museums.
A note on weight and handling: this is a matter that is difficult to communicate via a medium like this. You need to handle a sword to appreciate its charactersitics. Numbers on weight and point of balance will only take you half way in forming an understanding the feel of a weapon. Many times it is also a matter of previous experiences and references what meaning the understanding of words like "heavy" and "powerful" and "well balanced" will be.
When I say about a sword that is is a big and heavy wepon, it can mean it is a big version of its type or simply that its character is big and powerful. It might be percieved as light and manouverable or heavy, depending on what kind of swords you have experience from previously. Within all sword types (as defined in our modern times) there are great variances. Some parameters cannot vary so much before it will turn into another type, while other aspects can vary quite a bit. This is the nature of typologies. They are meant as tools of understanding, not as complete and perfect ways to describe things.
Working on the design of the "New Genreration" of Albion swords one challenge is to make blades that show strong expression of their type, while at the same time having attractive handling charactersitics.
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Lee Watts
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| Posted: Sun 31 Aug, 2003 9:52 am Post subject: |
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thanks peter. The type XII you are describing is exactly the type of sword i have been searching for, any idea when these are going to be available
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Joe Fults
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| Posted: Tue 02 Sep, 2003 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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I know albion needs no help from the peanut gallery, but it would be really neat to see somebody do a XVI too!
"The goal shouldn’t be to avoid being evil; it should be to actively do good." - Danah Boyd
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David Lannon
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| Posted: Tue 02 Sep, 2003 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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I am waiting for Albion (or ANYONE to do some nice Euro curvy things (Swiss sabers Hint Hint) I love complex hilted long swords too.
Dave
Good, Bad, I'm the guy with the gun!!!!
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Scott Byler
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| Posted: Tue 02 Sep, 2003 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| David Lannon wrote: | I am waiting for Albion (or ANYONE to do some nice Euro curvy things (Swiss sabers Hint Hint) I love complex hilted long swords too.
Dave |
Yeah, some of us keep begging. I thought about writing a note to the Albion folks to suggest it, but having no cash flow felt like I would be overstepping a bit to do that. But now that you've mentioned it, I'd love to see some on the market. There is a Swiss saber in one of the photo albums here that I'd love to have a copy of, but it wouldn't be cheap. Must have more money.... Must have....
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional
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| Posted: Wed 03 Sep, 2003 1:51 am Post subject: |
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| Scott Byler wrote: | | David Lannon wrote: | I am waiting for Albion (or ANYONE to do some nice Euro curvy things (Swiss sabers Hint Hint) I love complex hilted long swords too.
Dave |
Yeah, some of us keep begging. I thought about writing a note to the Albion folks to suggest it, but having no cash flow felt like I would be overstepping a bit to do that. But now that you've mentioned it, I'd love to see some on the market. There is a Swiss saber in one of the photo albums here that I'd love to have a copy of, but it wouldn't be cheap. Must have more money.... Must have.... |
Thanks for the suggestions, guys.
It is always god to get confirmation on things you have a feeling about and to get new input as well. Please do write and suggest favourites. It impotant to hear about customer preferences.
I think we will develop both the classic swords types as well as those that are previously not so often reproduced. Myself I have a weak spot for the german 16th C bastard swords, and swiss sabers are not far away from those in style and feel. Personally I prefer those that are close to the kriegs messer: a straight guard with a shell, wing or ring on the side and a blade that has a shallow curve to it. Right now there is a lot brewing, so it is difficult to give an estimate when new models can be available, but activity is in high gear to offer new and exiting products.
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Scott Byler
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| Posted: Wed 03 Sep, 2003 2:49 am Post subject: |
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| Peter Johnsson wrote: |
Thanks for the suggestions, guys.
It is always god to get confirmation on things you have a feeling about and to get new input as well. Please do write and suggest favourites. It impotant to hear about customer preferences.
I think we will develop both the classic swords types as well as those that are previously not so often reproduced. Myself I have a weak spot for the german 16th C bastard swords, and swiss sabers are not far away from those in style and feel. Personally I prefer those that are close to the kriegs messer: a straight guard with a shell, wing or ring on the side and a blade that has a shallow curve to it. Right now there is a lot brewing, so it is difficult to give an estimate when new models can be available, but activity is in high gear to offer new and exiting products. |
Peter, seems that someone posted up a couple of drawings of some nice curvy stuff that you designed. I thought those were quite nice looking designs. I'm attaching the drawing, and hope you don't mind. I'm partial to the one on the far right, myself. All would be nice pieces, though...
 Attachment: 50.62 KB
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Wed 03 Sep, 2003 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | I would buy each and every sword from that drawing were they to be replicated. |
I particularly like the one on the far right.
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Björn Hellqvist
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Wed 03 Sep, 2003 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | Nathan Robinson wrote: | | I would buy each and every sword from that drawing were they to be replicated. |
I particularly like the one on the far right. |
You mean this one?
Yeah, that one would be wicked...
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