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Lafayette C Curtis
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 Posted: Tue 02 Apr, 2013 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Jaroslav Kravcak wrote: | | My view is steady footman can have great advantage against fully galloping horse, if he trained it enough to be able to perform some maneuver to dodge horse and riders weapon and injure a horse himself, as he is moving in very predictable manner, unless cavalryman has some further plan. On the other hand, steady cavalryman moving slowly into contact, speeding up and changing directions unpredictably might well be the equivalent of a man foot, just moving much faster. |
It's not an either/or situation. If a horse (or rather a horse-and-horseman team) is quite good at agile manoeuvres at slower speeds, chances are that it's going to be quite good at swerving and circling at a gallop too. Why not make the most of that advantage?
Note that in a rejoneo the bull is the aggressor and the rejoneador needs to prolong the fight somewhat in order to make an interesting spectacle. A horseman is likely to be the aggressor against a man on foot (since he's the one who has the greater latitude in deciding whether to accept or decline the engagement) and he'd probably like to finish the fight as quickly as possible with a favourable outcome, so in all likelihood he'd want to use the horse's speed to enter the engagement and leave it as soon as possible if he couldn't disable or subdue the infantryman during the pass. This might involve slowing down briefly to exchange a few blows, but not an extended engagement in a stationary/low-speed situation because that basically means staying in the infantryman's turf and allowing him to press any advantage he gets rather than keeping the engagement on the horseman's terms by moving in and out very quickly while minimising the amount of time the horseman (and the horse) has to spend within the range of the infantryman's weapon.
| Quote: | Good you mentioned the fact, that on ultra short (and ultra long maybe?) distances a man can outrun a horse.  Nevertheless was this ever tested in combat conditions? A man in trekking shoes and only light clothes on and being top class sprinter against average horse, which might not even be well motivated to run full speed from the start is different to someone with heavy armour and weapons in hands (at least for me holding anything in hands makes sprinting more difficult) with prospect of fighting for his life at the end of this sprint against a horse, that most propably was trained to boost his ability to accelerate from the spot better than an average one. |
That's not the situation I have in mind. Think of the close-range engagement at relatively slow speeds as what you've been envisioning so far; if I was the man on foot and not already exhausted by a great deal of previous fighting, I'd be fairly confident about my chances of running around the horse and getting on the horseman's blind side before he could react -- not a guaranteed success, of course, but I'd be more than willing to take my chances. After all, while I can't be faster than a speeding bullet, I can be faster than the other fellow's trigger finger; by the same token, I may be able to take advantage of the half-second lag in the horseman's reaction time and the additional delay involved in relaying the desired movement to the horse through riding cues -- not to mention the horse's own reaction time. Of course the window of time I have before the horseman slews his horse back into position is going to be very brief but it may be all I need to seriously injure him or the horse.
| Quote: | | One more thing: I dont know if this has any validity, but man on a moving horse seems to be able to perform his attacks on much more stable platform, than someone trying to run against him and cut him at the same time. At least I cant hit anything properly with a sword and stay in balance at the same time, if Im running against my target, hitting it as I run by. (I mean cutting rather than thrusting) Once against, I dont want to say its a piece of cake to hit anything from a running horse, I rather try to say, that hitting things while moving at speed was the basic mode of attacking for a cavalryman, while on foot Id rather like to be more carefull with my footwork and so be by definion quite stationary. |
It just takes practice. I've done some free-play against multiple opponents on foot, and a great deal of it tends to involve me running around while making short stabs and swings in order to herd my opponents into a tight knot where they couldn't help but interfere with each other's movements. Of course the actions aren't going to be as clean as in a one-on-one duel (in the sense that the coordination between my bladework and footwork tends to get messy during the running segments) but it's surprisingly easy and intuitive. By the same token, if I have to engage a horseman who makes the mistake of slowing down for too long, I wouldn't hesitate to pit my mobility against the horse's because I have a much smaller disadvantage (or may even have the advantage) against a slow-moving horseman than against one who doesn't hesitate to use his horse's speed to keep the engagement on his own terms.
| Quote: | | All in all Im not trying to prove man on a horse had clear advantage, rather to disprove the opposite: that a man on foot would have the upper hand against well trained horse and well trained man. |
Of course it's not true; otherwise people wouldn't have bothered to train horses for close-quarters combat to begin with.
| Quote: | | And also to question the notion I accepted quite uncritically, before I started to dig into it, that once slowed down (bogged down in melee like its worded many times) horseman was dead meat, no matter how skilled, or trained specifically to fae such a situations. |
However, it is true that maintaining the horse's speed is generally much safer to the horseman than slowing down for an extended engagement against an infantryman. Enter, exchange a blow or two (or perhaps a few), and leave when (or before!) things start to get hairy. Don't just stay around and give the infantryman multiple chances to capitalise on your mistakes.
| Quote: | (It also sounds awfull to tell someone that if he gets surrounded by few men he is dead, even if it was true, giving him at least some technique to rely on is better than advice him to repent his sins already Id say  ) |
The best he can hope for is to cause as much disruption as possible and hope that his still-mounted friends would be able to exploit it and break the infantry formation. That being said, why bother if he could just use his horse's speed to avoid getting surrounded in the first place?
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Jaroslav Kravcak
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| Posted: Wed 03 Apr, 2013 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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I wasnt clear enough about how I envisaged a horseman trying to fight someone on foot fully.
I u sed stopping to try to fence, or having horse not even moving only as extreme model example, to picture it accurately (and Id say it matches definitely what you said in some sence) my idea was rather of allways maintaining distance and going in for an attack suddenly and getting into safe distance once again at rather moderate speed, trying as much as possible not to be too predictable and never staying in footmans reach for too long. So if he tries to run after me to gain the initiative, i can back off with ease, or have time to suddenly close in. My idea is, that unless im perfectly sure I can ride by and without much thought, like this he could be surprized to some extent, or i can at least test him out, see how he reacts more safely, than at greater speeds. I dont how possible it would be, but feinting, both with my weapon and horse movement at passing seems quite reasonable for getting even better fighter into trouble and going at modest rather than full speed might give more room to adjust and mistakes and also for making the attack more complex, than moving too fast.
It might all sound very similar to simply riding by full speed around him several times, Id say the difference is maybe only, that top speed of a horse wouldnt be that much of an issue as its ability to accelerate and vary speeds and directions quickly. But I haveno idea if it wouldnt be all overcomplicated for no gain compared to simply hitting stuff at full speed galloping a straight line.[/list]
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Thu 04 Apr, 2013 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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From my viewpoint -- which is going to be largely speculative since I've never actually fought an infantyman from horseback in earnest -- single combat is the situation where I wouldn't have any particularly strong reasons to restrict my speed. While charging in massed formation, it's obviously better to keep my horse at a brisk trot or an easy canter in the interests of preserving the integrity of the formation and its impact upon the enemy's morale. When there's no formation to worry about, though, I'd be free to make my passes at high speed and minimise the time I have to spend in actual hand-to-hand engagement with the infantryman. Besides, if I have the skill to get my horse through various complicated manoeuvres at the walk or trot, why would I go into battle without practicing similar manoeuvres at the canter or the gallop beforehand? This way my attacks at the charge/gallop wouldn't be restricted to "a straight line" and I'd still have the option of swerving away and declining the engagement at the very last moment.
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Len Parker
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sat 06 Apr, 2013 1:45 am Post subject: |
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I've never seen triple-riveted links before. Very cool. Would be nice to see the other side. I'm guessing that the rivet is a short length of wire bent into a staple in the shape of the number 3.
Edited to include the link.
 Attachment: 87.24 KB
Last edited by Dan Howard on Sat 06 Apr, 2013 1:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Len Parker
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| Posted: Sat 06 Apr, 2013 4:35 am Post subject: |
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Dan, I was thinking that the middle one is a wedge shaped rivet with a clamp rivet overlapping.
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sat 06 Apr, 2013 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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Is there evidence for wedge-riveting outside of Germany? In any case a wedge-rivet won't look like that. It also makes more sense to do the riveting in one operation with a single peening tool. A staple shaped like this should produce a result very similar to the photo. There is no way to know for certain without seeing the other side of the link.
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Len Parker
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| Posted: Sat 06 Apr, 2013 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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Looking at it again, I think you might be right. It does have an arched look about it. It doesn't look like the typical wedge rivet.
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Sat 06 Apr, 2013 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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Looking inside the neckline might offer a clue, but the mail at the neck is clearly rolled, so we might still be looking at the outside of some sort of hood. If not, the rivet heads appear to be double-sided. Missing rivets are evident at both the bottom split and at the neck split, where only 1 of 3 is missing, leaving a round hole.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Dan Howard
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| Posted: Sat 06 Apr, 2013 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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Kinda looks like three separate rivets on the inside of the neckline. The empty rivet holes support this too.
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Mart Shearer
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| Posted: Sat 06 Apr, 2013 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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A detail shot of some missing rivets from the skirting split:
Attachment: 43.86 KB
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Ahmad Tabari
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| Posted: Sun 07 Apr, 2013 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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Very cool mail finds. Too bad there aren't any mail shirts from the early Mamluk period.
I would just like to point out something regarding the whole horseman versus footman discussion. I noticed that you have mainly been considering one on one encounters. you should keep in mind that these would have been very rare scenarios. Unless you are mainly thinking about skirmishes, whenever horsemen and infantry met it was formation against formation. And from my understanding of battle accounts and military treatises (keep in mine I am no expert), horsemen would only engage infantry head on under four circumstances.
1- If the horsemen intend to immediately withdraw after delivering the charge
2- The infantrymen are scattered/ and or routing
3- The infantry formation had been softened by archery
4- If the heavy cavalry is confident that the infantry would rout upon initial impact.
I think its very rare for horsemen, even heavily armoured ones to be willing to get bogged down in melee with a solid infantry formations. Of course there are always exceptions but I believe that the norm for cavalry is they either break the infantry upon impact or they withdraw and regroup for another charge.
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Jaroslav Kravcak
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| Posted: Mon 08 Apr, 2013 3:53 am Post subject: |
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| Ahmad Tabari wrote: | Very cool mail finds. Too bad there aren't any mail shirts from the early Mamluk period.
I would just like to point out something regarding the whole horseman versus footman discussion. I noticed that you have mainly been considering one on one encounters. you should keep in mind that these would have been very rare scenarios. Unless you are mainly thinking about skirmishes, whenever horsemen and infantry met it was formation against formation. And from my understanding of battle accounts and military treatises (keep in mine I am no expert), horsemen would only engage infantry head on under four circumstances.
1- If the horsemen intend to immediately withdraw after delivering the charge
2- The infantrymen are scattered/ and or routing
3- The infantry formation had been softened by archery
4- If the heavy cavalry is confident that the infantry would rout upon initial impact.
I think its very rare for horsemen, even heavily armoured ones to be willing to get bogged down in melee with a solid infantry formations. Of course there are always exceptions but I believe that the norm for cavalry is they either break the infantry upon impact or they withdraw and regroup for another charge. |
Thats why I stated earlier I aim at individual horsemanship and weapon handling skills, not to ways of cavalry formation engaging dense and nondisordered infantry formation. My idea is, that the summary you gave sums it up nicely, though I think with the exception of withdraw after charge, it also sums up condition under which any force, infantry, or cavalry would ideally attack. (Im yet to see any evidence, that infantry of same quality and even several times their numbers would clearly succeed, if it substituted heavy cavalrys place in some of its worst defeats.)
Nevertheless, one on one in these terms means fighting against disordered enemy as well, to specify. When, by means mentioned above, cohesion and organization of infantry ceases to exist and its every man for himself in chaotic fight , that should theoretically be situation in which cavalry enjoyes superiority. (Second maybe only to cutting down fleeing enemies)
So the question is, would they really be highly effective against scattered enemy fighting in no coordinated manner, so that whole fight is just a series of struggles involving individuals, or very small groups? (If not, then Id say whole use of cavalry would really be only in terms of psychological weapon, useless in most actual fighting.) As far as examples go, id say there is enough evidence to say they were theoretically able to cause disproportionate casualties to enemies in these situations. If yes, then my view is the individual skill, maybe ability to cooperate in small groups was crutial under these circumstances, so I try to find out how they did it.
My motivation is mainly to find out, if weapon handling from horseback and horsemanship in war on individual level was more sophisticated and involved more, than just riding by and hacking at things, or relying on hugely superior weapon reach, or purely on ability to scare someone into not resisting. Battles were rare generally and any horseman seeing much fighting would only be involved in few big battles in his lifetime, while skirmishing/raiding/whatever else small war involves would be his daily bread.
Id like to find out, if it is better to stay with training foot combat, which is much less costly, or if it would be worth to invest time and effort into horse, horsemanship and maybe horse training without being dissappointed after several years of training, that all I tryed to train is easily countered by someone on foot and I have big problems defending against him myself, while on horse, no matter what I try. 
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Luka Borscak
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| Posted: Mon 08 Apr, 2013 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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Strict one on one fighting between horseman and footman shouldn't happen in a battle when infantry is disorganized and cavalry wants to take advantage of that. Cavalry should ride relatively fast among the disorganized and probably frightened footman, bumping into them, knocking them down, particular horseman should not concentrate on one particular footman unless he is a "light" target, facing away from them, is unable for some reason to defend, is concentrated on another horseman, etc...Psychological impact of cavalry is much greater if cavalry maintains chaos than if they concentrate each on "his own" infantryman and fight duels with footmen.
Also, using a spear/lance gives cavalry great advantage. Couched lance has greater reach than footman's spear because it can be held closer the butt and horse still gives you enough agility, footman has to hold spear closer to the middle if he wants to wield it with agility against a horseman.
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Ahmad Tabari
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| Posted: Mon 08 Apr, 2013 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Thats why I stated earlier I aim at individual horsemanship and weapon handling skills, not to ways of cavalry formation engaging dense and nondisordered infantry formation. |
Judging a contest between a single horseman and an infantryman is very tricky. On one hand the horseman (as Lafayette mentioned) has the advantage of initiative. He decides when, how and at what speed to engage the infantryman. And he can of course either use the horse's strength to run down the infantryman or use the horse's maneuverability to get passed the infantryman's defense and deliver a blow from the back. But by the same token, the infantryman can benefit form the horse's size (big target). And he can equally benefit from his stable position. One of the things that can truly tip the balance in the favour of the cavalryman is horse armour.
| Quote: | | Nevertheless, one on one in these terms means fighting against disordered enemy as well, to specify. When, by means mentioned above, cohesion and organization of infantry ceases to exist and its every man for himself in chaotic fight , that should theoretically be situation in which cavalry enjoyes superiority. (Second maybe only to cutting down fleeing enemies) |
Yes in such a situation, cavalry will certainly devastate infantry because the latter no longer have their rear and flanks secured (i.e. an ideal situation for cavalry).
| Quote: | | So the question is, would they really be highly effective against scattered enemy fighting in no coordinated manner, so that whole fight is just a series of struggles involving individuals, or very small groups? (If not, then Id say whole use of cavalry would really be only in terms of psychological weapon, useless in most actual fighting. |
Conventional military thought would say yes. Without having their rear and flanks secured, small scattered groups of infantry would most certainly be wiped out by cavalry.
| Quote: | | Id like to find out, if it is better to stay with training foot combat, which is much less costly, or if it would be worth to invest time and effort into horse, horsemanship and maybe horse training without being dissappointed after several years of training, that all I tryed to train is easily countered by someone on foot and I have big problems defending against him myself, while on horse, no matter what I try. |
I think the key to staying ahead and not getting disappointed is maintaining versatility. Infantrymen will always find ways to give proud horsemen a nasty and unexpected surprise. But cavalry in turn must also find ways to counter the infantry's strategy. Had they failed to do so they would not have remained the dominant force on the battlefields of Eurasia and North Africa well into the age of gunpowder. Remember, cavalry units such as the Polish Hussars were kicking infantry butts well into the 17th century 
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Lafayette C Curtis
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| Posted: Wed 17 Apr, 2013 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| Jaroslav Kravcak wrote: | | Id like to find out, if it is better to stay with training foot combat, which is much less costly, or if it would be worth to invest time and effort into horse, horsemanship and maybe horse training without being dissappointed after several years of training, that all I tryed to train is easily countered by someone on foot and I have big problems defending against him myself, while on horse, no matter what I try. |
Not trying to be offensive here, but that's a silly question. If you're interested in it, then it IS worth the investment. Whether you'll be able to get good enough at it before the zombie apocalypse comes is an entirely different (and, for the moment, irrelevant) question.
In other words, you can't really control all the circumstances in war (including whether you'll ever be involved in a real one or not). If you want to prepare yourself, just go ahead and train. The worst that can happen is you get a bit of fun before you die. 
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Bennison N
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| Posted: Wed 17 Apr, 2013 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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Seriously, if you have real trouble fighting a man on foot while on a horse, you're not doing it properly.
"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius
अजयखड्गधारी
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Tibor Szebenyi
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| Posted: Thu 04 Jul, 2013 2:40 am Post subject: |
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We cannot really decide theese questions based on real life experiences, because it is far from real battle. As Lafayette already wrote, today's warriors don't want to hurt the horse, and on the other hand today's cavalry doesn't want to smash friends into the ground.
Instead of thinking about it too much, install the superb game Mount and Blade! I am not joking, try it! It is an excellent medieval battle simulator, in which both the warriors and the horses have hit points, so it really makes sense to always push the forward button while mounted.
mamluk.webnode.hu
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