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Jaroslav Kravcak




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 22 Apr 2006

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PostPosted: Sat 24 Aug, 2013 3:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wouldnt the best way to get isolated man on foot, fully encased in plate armour be to make several more agile people surround him and drag him to the ground to be beaten by whatever they could find into submission? Laughing Out Loud Or was it rather accepted, that well trained armoured warrior on foot should be able to hold its own against several men at once? (Of a reasonable number, lets say 3-5)

And in many against many on foot, would mace/warhammer/axe with back spike be of any good use to counter other armoured men in formation? They are labelled as armour piercing, but as far as Ive seen they are far from being equivalent of modern anti tank missiles to score killing blow in one hit on armour. I wasnt hit by one, while wearing plate, but judging from the force behind the strike, most hits to the body with mace head, or hammer part of warhammer (one handed) seem to be maybe able to cause pain, but not severe injury through armour and padding, even then, Id say, if strikes are not perfectly alligned, they skid off round surfaces harmlessly. And some spike power demonstration show it being able to pierce armour (cheap, badly made maybe?), but also generally show most obvious problem: the further it penetrates, the more propable it is the weapon is lost for that engagement, burried sollidly in enemys armour, maybe not even deep enough to kill. Blow to head would most propably ring the bells inside of ones head and incapacitate him for some time, hard to say. (maybe someone gave it a try)

Nevertheless, if swordman was familiar with techniques of striking weak points of armoured opponent and well trained to do so, wouldnt he be on equal footing with someone heavily armoured wielding one handed mace without shield on foot, that would require to either land solid hind on helmet square on, or achieve several good hits to the same place to maybe beat swordman to submission?

Also, why are these mentioned as secondary weapons for armoured rennaisance and late middle ages cavalry in general? They seem really short (maybe 50-60 cm being mean maximum reach of these weapons?) Could it be, that mobility and elevation, that horse offered was ideal for landing more pronounced blows, aided by gravity, while getting quick out of trouble would supplement parrying? Still, against someone on foot they seem to be very short from horseback, if rider is armoured and not exactly exeptional athlete, able to lean fully to the side, if footman ducks as he is attacked, he might very well be off effective hitting range of horsemans mace/warhammer/axe. How much could a fully plated man lean forward and to the side in his 16th century (lets say from the time of the battle of Marignan) saddle for example? (Ive seen some demonstrations of horseman performing acrobatic tricks of the kind as attributed to cossacks in full plate, but not exactly in something, that could be called authentic replica of war saddle.)
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Tue 27 Aug, 2013 11:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A one handed piercing weapon, the yoroi doshi, not to be confused with a normal tanto, these have specially forged blades with extremely thick spines, this example is over 0.5 at its thickest point across the back, you can see the temper at the point.

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Philip Dyer





Joined: 25 Jul 2013

Posts: 498

PostPosted: Tue 27 Aug, 2013 12:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric S wrote:
A one handed piercing weapon, the yoroi doshi, not to be confused with a normal tanto, these have specially forged blades with extremely thick spines, this example is over 0.5 at its thickest point across the back, you can see the temper at the point.


Honestly if I was a lower class man fighting a knight, I would want friends or a Steel target shield and either a mace or a single handed version of tuck to make up for the fact that I have less armour. Cool, a japanese Rondel or Ballock dagger.
I
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Bennison N




Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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PostPosted: Tue 27 Aug, 2013 5:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is a Chinese Jian mace.

With enough practice, and massive forearms, this can be used with almost the same agility as a Chinese Jian sword.

It is a solid iron bar, and puts a big dent or crack in just about anything it hits.



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"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius

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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Reading list: 8 books

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PostPosted: Tue 27 Aug, 2013 7:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robert Rytel wrote:
Nobody said flail yet? I'm disappointed.
All of the authentic flails I have seen look like you would need two hands to use with any accuracy.

Indian kabastin flail.
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Philip Dyer





Joined: 25 Jul 2013

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PostPosted: Wed 28 Aug, 2013 5:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bennison N wrote:
This is a Chinese Jian mace.

With enough practice, and massive forearms, this can be used with almost the same agility as a Chinese Jian sword.

It is a solid iron bar, and puts a big dent or crack in just about anything it hits.

Why use this over a properly designed blunt force weapon. It's a blunt weapon with the force spread out like a sword, seems inefficent.
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Bennison N




Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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PostPosted: Wed 28 Aug, 2013 1:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The main use of this weapon is destroying other weapons, in particular swords and spears. Another variety of these weapons are split down the length into segments which act as a serrated edge on the edges of bladed weapons.

The shorter Jian and Bian (generally used as a pair) maces are set apart from the longer ones by being translated as "iron whip" as compared to "mace". This is due to the technique used for applying force.

Because of this technique required to optimize the power of this weapon, and the fact that they are made with sometimes close to absurd weight, these are most definitely an advanced level weapon (in terms of skills), and are generally carried throughout history by near-mythical heroes and Generals.

Here are some varieties:



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"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius

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Philip Dyer





Joined: 25 Jul 2013

Posts: 498

PostPosted: Wed 28 Aug, 2013 1:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bennison N wrote:
The main use of this weapon is destroying other weapons, in particular swords and spears. Another variety of these weapons are split down the length into segments which act as a serrated edge on the edges of bladed weapons.

The shorter Jian and Bian (generally used as a pair) maces are set apart from the longer ones by being translated as "iron whip" as compared to "mace". This is due to the technique used for applying force.

Because of this technique required to optimize the power of this weapon, and the fact that they are made with sometimes close to absurd weight, these are most definitely an advanced level weapon (in terms of skills), and are generally carried throughout history by near-mythical heroes and Generals.

Here are some varieties:

So they are like China's version of the sword breaker dagger?
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